Forum:Further Units

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Neutral Tech Structures

Hazza-the-Fox (talk) 23:57, August 25, 2012 (UTC) Ok, I think it's time to get the neutral tech structures updated and clarified with a new section! (especially with a recent list of ideas- some of which were a bit abstract when I mentioned them last time) ;)

Standard Resource Structures

• Supply Stash- the 'ore fields' for RAZ- exactly the same as they are in Generals- randomly scattered arms stashes that you collect shipments from. No need to capture it, any player can take from these. Cargo planes may fly overhead to replenish these.
• Warehouse- must be captured. Afterwards, it functions as a 'super supply stash' comparable to blue tiberium or rare ore. Send your trucks here to recieve better shipments. Often these are in deeper points of the map, so your trucks spend more time on the road.
• Zone Checkpoint- must be captured. Will periodically send in RANDOM reinforcements corresponding to your nation only. Always found at the end of a map. Can also garrison infantry inside for defense.

Hazza-the-Fox (talk) 00:32, August 26, 2012 (UTC)These are very common occurances that players often MUST be getting access to (and usually start the map with access to some of these already).

VolteMetalic (talk) 15:20, August 27, 2012 (UTC): Agree, just also to make a naval version of Supply Stash :)

Hazza-the-Fox (talk) 00:02, August 28, 2012 (UTC) Yes! That too! (wrecked supply ship)? Also should there be naval versions of the other things (eg Sea port warehouse)?

Miscellaneous

• Bridge- if bridges are possible in Red Alert 3, that is ;)
• Infantry Terrain Cover/Trenches. Certain patches on the ground offer infantry a huge armor boost, slight range boost, and make them uncrushable by enemy vehicles (which might possibly not even be able to cross at all). Scouts gain an extra boost from infantry cover, doing more damage with their guns and getting an even greater armor boost than other infantry do. Heavy Infantry like Tesla Troopers can also benefit from Infantry Cover- but not quite as much as non-heavy units.
• Garrisonable Civilian Building- garrisonable. Only small/medium-arms infantry can enter. Heavy infantry cannot. Some attacks instantly kill the infantry inside without harming the structure (Marines storming in), others can harm infantry inside (Conscript Molotovs), and others kill everyone and bring the structure to critical (Pariah). Mostly, enemy units must shoot the structure itself. This applies to any other neutral structure that can garrison infantry (note however that Allied and Soviet-built structures cannot be stormed, and the Fallout Fort is actually immune to most of these special attacks, and must be attacked from the outside only).

Hazza-the-Fox (talk) 00:32, August 26, 2012 (UTC)These are scattered around the map, non-vital but highly useful.

VolteMetalic (talk) 15:20, August 27, 2012 (UTC): The bridges are in RA3, just now I cant remember if they cna be repaired. But I think they can :) And I really love trenches, it is something what I was thinking for long time, planning it (in smaller scale) for my fictional RA3 faction ((Nationalists).

Hazza-the-Fox (talk) 00:02, August 28, 2012 (UTC) Awesome and awesome! I too have always wanted trenches or something similar of the sort (not to mention it massively solidifies infantry as a defensive option)!

Crates

• Money- Gives 5000$.
• Repair & Medical Tools- Heals or repairs any nearby units to full health.
• Promotion- Grants units nearby one experience level for free.

Hazza-the-Fox (talk) 00:32, August 26, 2012 (UTC) These are pretty much exactly like other CNC games. They are found in one of three ways:

1. They fall from the sky (a plane will actually fly across the map and drop a whole bunch of them along its path- effectively announcing to the players that the crates have arrived)
2. From destroyed Suppy Trucks returning from the warehouse. This means that if you destroy an enemy supply truck leaving the base, you get nothing. BUT, take it out on the way back from the warehouse, you get to loot it! This may apply to the Supply Stash too.
3. Lying in stashes hidden around the map.

If a unit picks it up, the bonuses could be a cash injection, armor increase, damage increase or promotion, among other beneficial boosts- possibly even some spy benefits (like revealing an enemy structure, alarm-bypass, or wall-busting). Potentially, if a scout (or better yet, a spy) were to pick it up, many of the bonuses would be more universal (eg, ALL your future soldiers get an armor boost- but it is much smaller than if a single soldier/group picked it up- naturally this does not cover promotions- the scout recieves the boost just like any normal unit).

VolteMetalic (talk) 15:20, August 27, 2012 (UTC): There I woul d jsut give it the usual upgrades. Money, promotion, repair... and maybe some random units (Kodiak, Mauler) or even older unqiue units (RA2 Rhino, Mauler's predecessor, Protector, RA1 Med Tank...). For other benefits, I dont know, thought maybe few one-use-only Special powers can be given, like artillery barrage.

Hazza-the-Fox (talk) 00:02, August 28, 2012 (UTC) Hmmm, these sound quite good! And I like the idea of old-generation tanks lying around the battlefield too! And one-use powers are definitely a good option! And yes, generally I agree that field repairs, promotions and cash are the best options for most cases!

Special Tech Structures

• Power Station- gives a huge power output
• Oilrig- generates resources without need of a supply vehicle- found on land and sea
• Hospital - heals all infantry on the map VERY quickly
• MachineShop/Statio n - auto-repairs all vehicles
• Airport- calls in paradrops. May possibly also have some spare hangar space for your own aircraft.
• Defense platform/Listening Post- some light long-range howitzers and AA machineguns. Garrisons infantry. Has possible detector range.
• Secret Lab- grants special upgrades that are probably too potent to normally gain (same for each side of course)- may also reveal large area as LOS. The upgrades would most likely correspond to units interracting with the map/tech structures (eg infantry cover can cloak all veteran soldiers, or protect them against bombs etc).
• Ballistic Missile Bunker- tech superweapon- not very powerful missiles, but a very short countdown- enemy can be attacked every 1-2 minutes. Can garrison infantry. Far weaker than any normal superweapon overall, but perfect for harrassment and luring enemies out of their base to try to stop you. Plus it only costs 500 for an engineer to capture it, rather than 6x for a nuke. Also, these missiles could actually be non-lethal, and instead be EMPs or something.

Hazza-the-Fox (talk) 00:32, August 26, 2012 (UTC)These structures are non-vital, rarer, and often more strategically useful. all of these (with the exception of the Garrisonable Civilian building) need to be captured by an engineer before they can be used.

Your ideas for some tech structures? Thoughts on these ideas? Keep in mind there are a lot of other potential ideas- and of course, a lot of these, and the ideas above, can be chopped up and reorganized into a completely different combination of structures (eg perhaps the Bunker and the Secret Lab are the same structure, and shoots something completely different, but doesn't extend LOS at all- which instead the airport does, for example- or the machineshop and defense platform are the same, but doesn't have detector range?).

Any combination we want really- I reckon the best-balancing, most useful etc will be the combination we should go for (and that of course includes scrapping any of the above I mentioned if they won't work) ;)

Also, I kinda just made this format in a hurry- I'm happy to keep it, but if you want to augment it I'm happy with that too.

VolteMetalic (talk) 15:20, August 27, 2012 (UTC):

• Power Station, good.

• Oil Rig/Oil Derrick, agree, just that naval version will be different in design.

• Hospital, yes, but not that it will instantly heal the injuries, but reasonably.
• Machine Shop, yes.
• Airport... giving it paradropping, I agree, but maybe also a weak carpet bombing ability. And offering an additional place for aircrafts... I think yes :)
• Defense Platform, or Foritifcation, I agree.
• Secret Lab... depends on what kind of upgrades, but I do like it :)
• Ballistic Missile Bunker, I agree :)

Yeah, i was thinking of few things. Inspired by SWR Productions, there may be capturable defenses, like a Foxhole with MG, AT gun, AA gun platform, naval guns (smaller than Grand Cannons in strenght and range, but more durable) and radar station for LOS (but dont gives minimap) and so. Beside it, there may be few "super oil derricks", like Diamond Mine, Steel Mine, or for urban areas "Bank" or "Stock Exchange". And also a "War Academy" from RA3, which insreases promotion level of your units by one level, and can add to oen another (3 War Academies = all units starts as Heroic), or just unit-type specific (Infantry Academy, Tank Crew Academy, Naval Academy, "academy for aircraft pilots").

Hazza-the-Fox (talk) 00:02, August 28, 2012 (UTC)

These sound good (updated)

• Powerplant- cool. Actually I thought of an awesome secondary idea. Tech Powerplants have 'backup power'. If your base is struck by a power-sabotage attack, so long as you have a tech reactor, you will never actually power down- merely you only generate half power, and cannot use special abilities during the 'power-down' time?
• Oil Rig- no probs- two different designs! On that note, I got a simple approach- a normal land-based oil derreck, and a larger oceanic oilrig (generates more resources- fits nicely as a 'super-generator')
• Hospital- very good, considering infantry may well be healed by other sources, this simply adds to it a bit- hopefully with the right balance, infantry can last at least 40% longer in a fight so long as they stay away from suppressive fire, and if they survive a battle , are guaranteed to enter the next at full health.
• Machineshop- cool. I think its also perfectly balanced that this thing is a stand-alone building like the Hospital. If we DID want to give it another function, it could have a rapid re-armament rate for all nearby units that use finite ammo types.
• Airport- hmm, carpet bombing is a thought. It depends if we want the airport to have two independent drops. Perhaps if not that, it toggles between random airdrop abilities? (the idea is they can only call in whichever aircraft are available) So first time you might get a crate drop (in a tight cluster, and not in a long row like the random generated crate drops), then a carpet-bomber strike, then an infantry drop? And definitely aircraft housing- it not only makes sense, but I think its good gameplay to encourage players to use whichever units are getting a boost.
• Defense platform- I was thinking it is a 'jack-of-all-trades' defense and control point that combines a few of the capturable defenses you mentioned and combines them. Crossing a (large) infantry bunker, some light long-range naval guns (that double as anti-tank howitzers), and an AA machinegun. If you wanted to split this up, we could possibly add some detector/sight-range boosts on one platform or the other...
• Ballistic Missile Launcher- cool. Got a good design going. Also, thinking about it, I reckon it may be best as a defenseless structure, rather than a structure that allows garrisoning. Although, it COULD provide rapid rearmament for nearby units? Of course, this could be applied to some other structure.
• Lab, I think I may have a solution (see below).
• Academy- awesome, actually, I had an awesome idea- we mix this and the LAB together! SO.
• Intelligence-Academy/ Tech Intelligence Bureau?!?! Thought of a cool appearance (like the Pentagon- only quadrilateral). What it should do is (any combination of the above);
  • Bump future infantry up by one rank
  • Generally allow all units to climb ranks faster
  • Allow all Veteran+ aircraft and ground vehicles to eject pilots (like in Generals)
  • Allow ALL Elite units to return to their production-structure, and further bump up the rank of future recruits
  • Upgrade for pilots and possibly engineers (allow hijacking of enemy vehicles)
  • Upgrade to allow engineers to capture a structure without disappearing (extremely expensive of course)
  • Upgrade for scouts (cast a tiny radius of stealth over nearby INFANTRY)
  • Possible upgrade for infantry to be hidden if in a trench except when shooting (of course, this may overlap with the scout's upgrade)
  • Possibly a few base upgrades
• Super-resource generator- I was actually thinking this is what the warehouse does (being much more difficult to defend is its weakness- as it still needs the supply trucks). Naturally, if we make a sea-version of this structure (seaport?) its shipments would be even more valuable. Not to mention it looks perfectly at home in a desert or downtown in a major city ;)

Update alert list

Hazza-the-Fox 13:20, February 8, 2012 (UTC) A little section to act as a handy reminder to either of us to check back at any sections the other might overlook for any new details or considerations- as I imagine both of us have made a few adjustments and the other has yet to notice.

Obviously, we'd remember most of the discussions we were having and check them automatically- but ones that we've left for a while, or have left un-answered for a while, this would be a good 'update' section to alert the other.

VolteMetalic 16:23, February 8, 2012 (UTC): Maybe a kind of banner cna be sufficient :)

Hazza-the-Fox 01:45, February 9, 2012 (UTC) That could work- tell me more!

Hazza-the-Fox 06:36, February 21, 2012 (UTC) I think for now, we can keep this section open- as we'll be wrapping up soon but can still use this for some last-minute tweaks (if we don't simply carry over to the new forum).

Hazza-the-Fox 13:02, April 17, 2012 (UTC) Yo! I'm back- got a bit of time off (finished half of my assignments faster than I thought).

Just back with a few considerations (easier to put them in a single update than randomly assigned to the nations)

• Japan's two infantry units should be Imperial Marine and some kind of Ninja
  • Imperial Marine- leans on the more 'armor/samurai' side; same function we discussed (rifle/sword). Heavily armored for a general infantry unit, but still moves quickly. Note that his armor is still 'general infantry armor'- is still vulnerable to dogs, small-arms, etc; and lacks the strength or immunities of what heavy infantry have (Gatling Trooper, Tesla Trooper, Desolator, Chrono-Legionairre, Centurion)
  • Ninja- I was thinking about the second unit and how it would function- and realized it is better to opt for a stealth unit who needs to sneak up to his targets rather than tackle them with durability (it helps prevent him 'doubling up' to the Imperial Marine- more 'rational' artistically speaking, can be 'lower tech' than a major direct-assault melee unit- not to mention weaker, and also opens up more possibilities of this unit attacking units like Tesla Troopers etc. Reckon that smoke grenade idea can be his secondary attack, and otherwise uses sword (light infantry) and planted explosive (heavy infantry, vehicles and structures).
• Libya's 'Jackal' I've decided should be a different kind of dump-truck/pickup truck-meets-monster truck to the Nuke Truck. Simply a bulky, heavy-ish armored vehicle (probably a medium-sized earth mover with extra large wheels) with an open-top container/flatbed behind where three free-standing gunners in radiation suits man mounted weapons (mostly machineguns- with the front gunner manning something bigger). Also ontop of the pickup is the booster rocket for charging ahead (when this happens, the gunners take brace positions and buckle up). Artistically mixes the best of the visible gunners, and a naturally-slow but rocket-assisted vehicle all in one. Of course, it could be a GLA-style custom vehicle but in a very similar vein to what I described ;)
• Brazil's Atlas
  • Movement-wise, I reckon instead of static-free-floating, it should actually have a constant flight path; either flying in an orbit (Harbinger-style, but MUCH wider), or ideally, some kind of erratic 'patrol flight path' like the jets in CNC generals had. Runway-dependent being another possibility (and can recieve the infantry passengers while grounded). Reason is that it clearly breaks it from the Comanche, gives it 'drive by shooting' style, requires a bit of micro to coordinate, and uses its constant mobility as a defense (but also a risk). Plus, none of the other aircraft attack in such a way ;)
  • Weapons- to give it a distinct function, I reckon the way to go is to give it weapons completely unlike the Comanche, rather it could get a few medium-heavy "Sentry Cannon" guns and vulcans for general suppressive fire (probably at multiple targets).
  • Bombardment/hard-hitting capabilities are limited to the infantry drop-pods. Meaning that it literally needs loaded infantry as ammunition! Otherwise its medium cannon provides only complimentary fire. These should ensure that to get the maximum damage out of this craft, you need to micro (as gunships are INSANELY powerful units in RTSs- so a few conditions on its power is a good balancing tool- plus it makes using it an interesting 'game' in itself- which is what the nationals are all about)
• Oslo Group's infantry unit-
  • I reckon his 'freeze' ability should be a splash-attack, but administered indirectly via concealed planted devices (remote detonated). Reason for this is it means that between this guy, and the Legionairre, one attacks directly but one-on-one only; the other can only attack indirectly, but can get a group at a time.
  • With that in mind, this 'splash' could render the victims temporarily 'frozen'- and either vulnerable to enemy fire- or actually invulnerable to attacks- making this weapon strictly a way to buy a lot of extra time. Note that this could be altered by an upgrade (invulnerable first, vulnerable post-upgrade).
  • That leaves his primary attack free- question is, what would the Allies need? Perhaps his shots can 'slow' targets? (noting this is what the Centurion does too). Simo-haya long-ranged rifle being another possibility (though a bit redundant as the Jagers and SAS Snipers already do this).

VolteMetalic 14:29, April 17, 2012 (UTC): Welcome! I was wondering where you have been :P

• The Imperial Marine sounds fine. And what will be its Secondary?
• The Ninja... its a nice idea, yes! But what will be his role at all? While being unique?
• The Jackal, depends on what size it will be. If it will be a pickup or off-road, it could work well with open-topped compartment with gunners as well as to make the rockets being possible. WHen it will be a truck, it will require large rockets, which would take away the space for gunners :)
• Atlas. The armament was always thoguth to be guns and machine guns rather than missiles. For the movement, it wouldnt be a "flying fortress" at all. Think of it as "advanced airship" without the gas bags, but instead with hovering pads. To amek it constantly flying will negate the hover pads, which are emant to "hover" on place. And without hover pads, it will require huge wings and engines to keep that massive thing in the air, practically making it into heavy gunship.
• The Oslo Group's infantry, it would use Cryo weaponry into some extent. When I will use Mass Effect as source, the ifnantry man can carry cryo rounds, which can freeze enemy infantry after some shots, and have a cryo grenade or charge, which he trows, but it takes time till it detoantes, or must be detoanted remotelly by the player.

Hazza-the-Fox 07:42, April 18, 2012 (UTC) Cheers! Adjusting to my new course (more importantly, after 6 months of being lazy) takes a lot of effort- plus over the past month I had a few extra responsibilities- but starting to get back into gear!

• Imperial Marine- simple- second ability switches rifle for sword, and vice-versa (and in sword mode he runs, rather than walks- making him a good 'charge' unit)
• Ninja- A stealth 'front-line' attacker. Melee attacks (either sword or planted explosive). He is an 'operative' (radar invisible, Alarm Bypass). However, rather than being invisible- to cover his presence from regular enemies, he throws the smokescreen to block their line of sight- allowing him to sneak through that. Naturally he only gets one of these grenades- so a bit of micro is necessary for his stealth to work. The bright side is, he can handle enemy guard dogs by himself, moves quickly, and takes a reasonable amount of damage from typical attacks. Possibly, he is uncrushable (but rather than 'block' a vehicle, he is merely shunted to the side as if he were a vehicle himself (in essence, dodging it). He could be used to lay a smokescreen for an infanrty advance- or, sneak into a base ahead of your spies to clear away the dogs- or even draw fire. Overall, he provides cover for other units. Perhaps, with Alarm Bypass Training (or reaching heroic) he can become invisible when still?
• Jackal- I've got some fairly good designs going; Typically it's moderately large (way bigger than a technical, probably smaller than a cement mixer)- and the gunners in the back are in a 'horseshoe' layout. One front-middle gunner, two gunners on either side (who can also point forward). The booster rocket sits betweent them (inside the horseshoe). The 'deck' they are standing on, along with the truck's cabin- are simply very heavily armored.
• Atlas; Ok- just wanted to check the ideas. With the light guns, I think it should be safe as a free-floating unit. Also, I thought of a possible design now; (rather than a fat aircraft- it is actually a broader skinnier sky-lifter-style aircraft- looking vaguely reminiscent of a weaponized Orca Carryall);
  • The front is a broad 'hammerhead' design, with the pilot cockpits and a few of the guns, and probably a fore-propulsion suite on either side.
  • The rear has a heavy engine, flanked by gunner compartments on each side, then broad wings with larger propulsors sticking out from the gunner compartments.
  • Connecting these two parts is a long thin 'spine' (like the sky-crane)- but bigger- which crew can move between the front and back. Suspended beneath this spine are the drop pods (if infantry are inside)
  • Most of the guns are downward-facing, but a couple could be on top (in particular, on the middle spine part)
  • The propulsors, regardless of tech, will be broad and disk-shaped (or donut shaped)- so the selected tech is merely a texture job on the model.
• Oslo Infantry; I think his 'group-freeze' weapon should be planted like a mine or even 'built'; as it is a more potent attack so warrants the effort. For his primary- perhaps his gun (long-ish ranged for an infantry unit) does good damage, and also slows its target down a bit with every hit (so concentrating fire on one target slows it tremendously). Alternatively, it simply hampers enemy vehicles per shot?

VolteMetalic 18:15, April 18, 2012 (UTC):

• Imperial Marine- Fine, I see.
• Ninja- Hmm... So how would be the attacks, and the Secondary?
• Jackal- I meant, if the rockets would be strong enough to look possible, giving enough push to amke the truck faster, and being believeable.
• Atlas- I was thinking along the way of titans from Battlefield 2142. But yours may be an interesting thing to see :)
• Oslo Infantry- Hmm... maybe they can build a "freeze turret"? A light and small defense which can freeze enemy? No, the demo charge would be enough. And the weapon... I am not sure about the long range rifle. It could make Jagers little redundant.

Hazza-the-Fox 23:13, April 18, 2012 (UTC)

• Imperial- cool
• Ninja- melee against any target (sword for infantry, planted bombs with a short fuse for everything else-though perhaps these bombs are not as potent as Jager C4 to ensure it doesn't overlap). Secondary is throwing the smoke grenade (which blocks line of sight to any unit outside or inside- except the ninja of course- meaning that ideally, you would throw it over the enemy, or failing that, just ahead of the enemy and hide the ninja inside)
• Jackal- I understand too- the rocket takes up about 70% of the 'deck' space- which itself accounts for 80% of the vehicle's upper surface area
• Atlas- cheers! It would also look immediately distinct from the other 'heavy' aircraft with its different physique!
• Oslo Infantry- Agreed for demo charge- and good point about the rifle, you're right.. I guess we will need to determine function based on his nation- keeping in mind that this soldier is a complimentary unit to the Chrono Relay Vehicle- and his deployed freeze-charge helps stall enemies trying to take out the Relay- so I guess his primary attack would need to compliment the Relay (possibly still stall for time?) in some way no existing Allied infantry does (at least as far as Oslo goes- though preferably all sides too of course....

VolteMetalic 08:12, April 19, 2012 (UTC): Ahh, I see. Ninja and Jackal are fine, and for Atlas we will see how he will look like :)

I have no ideas how can it compliment Relay at all...

Hazza-the-Fox 08:46, April 19, 2012 (UTC)Cool- well in that case we could probably start returning to sub-sections to discuss them again when they come up.

PS how is Revora going?

VolteMetalic 07:40, April 20, 2012 (UTC): I dunno. I told the man, but he was inactive for long time. I can ask him again,a s he returned again, but I really dont know :S

Hazza-the-Fox 08:11, April 20, 2012 (UTC) Cool- I'm not in a hurry as I do have a few assignments over the next month anyway- though I think I can start getting a little more active soon ;)

VolteMetalic 08:35, April 21, 2012 (UTC): Okay! :D

Hazza-the-Fox 03:06, May 21, 2012 (UTC) Yo, it's me, just thought I'd mention the next ideas;

I've found an awesome idea for that cluster-mortar defense; it is called, simply, the "Mortar cluster', and is a huge array of small mortars pointing in one direction. Naturally, this defense is fixed and can only fire at 90-180 degrees. Its only way of firing is a light barrage that explodes over the heads of enemies, showering them in shrapnel.

Ukraine- Desolator and Nuke mortar tank; I figured, they don't need two siege-range units, so the Desolator's range has been scaled back to about a Tesla Coil's (more or less). The Nuclear Artillery unit (perhaps Behemoth or Annihilator or even Demolisher) is basically a very large, heavily armored mortar that fires shells filled with depleted uranium fragments- it hurts a lot (like artillery would) and disperses toxic waste ('lesser nuclear') damage. At heroic it just shoots small nukes.

Poland- gets the Ivan, and the spider mech thing (I've dubbed "Stalker") is definitely what I'm going for. Basically, a rather longish-ranged light cannon that fires in bursts and can usually take out most infantry per burst. I've done some analysis and I reckon its the perfect team for the Ivan- as it can pick off guards from a distance (way less than a sniper though), allowing the Ivan to sneak into the base. That aside, I have no idea if this mech is manned or instead a robot (its very small, its chassis weighs under a tonne, but it could fit one person inside)

That aside, I'm still working on some designs- got my last two assignments due the following week I should have more time.

VolteMetalic 07:09, May 21, 2012 (UTC): Ahh, so a defense made from several mortars. That could work :)

Ukraine- I am little confused now. What Behemoth and Annihilator is again? I am little lost :P

Poland- So a sniper mech drone? :) I like it :) And I would give it one guy.

Hazza-the-Fox 12:25, May 21, 2012 (UTC) Cheers

Yep that's right- and it makes a lot more sense too for there to simply be several small cheap mortars than a biggish one.

Don't worry about the names, we'll probably do a bit of a re-definition; for now, let's codename the Ukranian mortar as the 'Nuke Mortar' and our Mammoth/Apocalypse/Land-cruiser tank as simply 'Mammoth' until we decide on the best names.

Cool- manned drone it is! And yes, that is generally the idea- its not *quite* sniper range, and needs to hit most infantry a couple of times to kill them- but it outpaces many other units and fires in bursts of 3. Ultimately, in large enough numbers it can start doing nasty things to enemy soldiers and light vehicles (but alone still does fair damage and can easily pick off a few lone guards), and it is definitely something that would encourage defending players to chase away with their other defenders ;)

So, with these in mind I think we may need some new category entries (till Revora gives us a spot).

VolteMetalic 18:01, May 21, 2012 (UTC): For Revora, I really dont know. But the friend who is there, he was never quite reliable :P I will have to remind him it.

Aha... I remember the Mammoth, but what was Nuke Mortar actually?

Hazza-the-Fox 01:34, May 22, 2012 (UTC) No probs- I might do some reorganizing on this page in the meantime when I get the time to fit these new units in ;)

Ok, for definitions;

• The former 'devestator' tank we will just dub 'Mammoth' or 'Apoc' for now (after all, there is only one twin-barrelled ultra-heavy attack vehicle in this mod- so we'll know what we mean- keep in mind its actual function is the same as we agreed).
• The new Ukrainian siege unit we dub as Nuke Mortar- largely a new type of unit- which is pretty much a massive heavily armored tank with a large but short mortar on its nose. It would look something like those old German heavy mortar/rocket tanks in WW2. In function, an armored artillery piece that is rather hard to break (but is expensive, shorter-ranged, horribly slow moving (and slow projectiles) and its damage isn't TOO severe- just very widespread). Naturally, with a fixed nose-mounted gun, it can't fire on the move.

VolteMetalic 18:49, May 22, 2012 (UTC): So Nuke Mortar will be somewhat combination of Sturmtiger and Mortars from S.W.I.N.E.? Link

Hazza-the-Fox 23:39, May 24, 2012 (UTC) Yep- something like that; (though single barreled of course)

For all the aircraft, most are DEFINITELY staying the same; I figured however we should replace the Allied napalm bomber with a Spookie/Specter Gunship (that may use incendiary ammo). Basically helps blur the function of this craft (as the "raptor" already fills the role of bomber, and the National Atlas fills the role of saturated-fire mass-attack gunship; therefore a "Specter" would do nicely as some (heavy-fire) in-between craft; has heavier guns (as it has less time to use them in an attack), but requires a runway, fires more scarecely, and is ultimately some kind of 'drive-by' assault-gunship-meets-bomber of sorts)

Also, a bit of analysis, I realized that the Czech side would be very badly matched against Germany (especially as Tank Destroyers are getting one or two free shots in before the T-Tanks get close enough to retaliate). To counter this they should actually get a "mobile Iron Curtain Device"- a very expensive support vehicle with two functions;

1. Its normal "attack" is to actually target a friendly vehicle and make it invincible (so long as the connection is retained- just like a psychic's Mind Control). It has to be in range of the unit to 'attack' it, but after the unit is under its 'control' the unit can move out of range and keep the effects. However, it can only do this for ONE unit at a time. And if a further balance is required, the Mobile IC actually takes damage per every second that it keeps the connection. As a result, it cannot auto-attack. This attack also kills infantry, and possibly freezes enemy vehicles (but makes them indestructible)
2. It can deploy a small IC field around itself-- which kills any infantry, and renders any vehicles inside invulnerable (except itself). It takes huge damage-per-second when it does this however. This allows the IC to stack up with artillery or Mammoth Tanks to launch some kind of 'artillery porcupine' attack- especially handy against enemy bombers, as they would be forced to make one run to take out the IC device, go back, rearm- BEFORE they can lay a finger on the actual attackers.

That way, with great expense and a bit of planning, the Tesla Tanks could turn the tide on the Tank Destroyers, along with getting a reprieve against enemy nuke trucks and Prism Tanks- without actually taking away the natural advantage these other vehicles deserve to have. Meanwhile, the IC itself is vulnerable and needs protection- particularly against the likes of German Bikers, Nuke Trucks and other speedy units; so it should be relatively balanced.

VolteMetalic 07:48, May 25, 2012 (UTC):Spectre, I agree with it. I love gunships :P

The Czech mobile IC, the second option is far better, because 1st can be unbalanced as hell. You will make invulnerable just one Devastator (Apoc tank) in your base, and than send it alone into enemy base. What can that stop, when you will have the IC in your base? The second option is the one I am supporting the most for any IC-based technology :)

Hazza-the-Fox 09:34, May 25, 2012 (UTC) Awesome- Spectre it is!

That is true about balance- but I think the IC incurring damage *might* balance it out- especially if the rate of damage it takes per second either

1. increases over time a connection is active
2. Increases when the target unit moves out of its maximum target-acquisition range (rather than simply cuts connection like a normal attack)

1. is higher or lower according to the HP of the unit it is connecting to.

So for either of these, parking the IC inside the base, and sending out a lone invincible Apocalypse is possible, but has risks that the IC will take a massive hammering as the slow Apoc makes its journey for a long time before it actually gets close enough to attack anything. It remains possible, but this may encourage players to pull the Mobile ICD closer to the target to ensure maximum damage and minimum decay risk.

VolteMetalic 08:22, May 26, 2012 (UTC): IC is something what is the same at any range, than its just a shield and not IC :)

Hazza-the-Fox 00:16, May 27, 2012 (UTC) True- then we could always use options 1 or 2 instead. And keep in mind, the range of its 'deploy' shield is really tiny (way smaller than even RA2's IC area). While the single-unit function would stretch a very long distance. The idea is that the Mobile IC can either put a protective blanket over an artillery battery- or boost one single shorter-ranged assault unit (in particular the Tesla Tank) to safely break into the enemy lines. I think it is important that the IC can do both, just to ensure the Tesla Tank gets some clear opportunities to do its job against an enemy like Germany.

Hazza-the-Fox 10:52, June 3, 2012 (UTC) Also, a few other things;

1- the FlameBot, I figured its secondary ability should be to self-destruct (doing nice damage to vehicles at point-blank range and killing infantry nearby), and leaving a large 'wall of fire' that units will take intense damage from trying to cross (the fire fades after 30sec or a minute). As a handicap, the FlameBot can't insta-destruct like the Pariah can- it takes a few seconds, and if it is destroyed prior to self-destruct, it harmlessly breaks apart normally. That way, it poses a drastic attempt to thwart some incoming vehicles, but fails to function as a proper suicide unit.

Also, check out the nations page- doing a final sweep of which nations/countries fit where (and a bit of nemesis between them out of interest).

VolteMetalic 11:33, June 3, 2012 (UTC): Smaller than IC in RA2 the mobile IC is than useless, because it would need the vehicles nearby to be practically touching with it, and than concentrating on MIC is an easy job. When the area is larger, it will be more harder to destroy the MIC to get through the indestructible tanks.

And the idea with FlameBot sounds good :)

Hazza-the-Fox 23:44, June 3, 2012 (UTC) No probs- how about the same area as normal IC, but the MIC incurs constant (light) damage while deployed?

Flamebot- cool; I was thinking about its special ability and comparing it to the Terror Drone, and realized that creating a constant flame is kinda what it would do automatically when a bunch of soldiers approach it, yet had absolutely no function against enemy armor; with this, the dychotomy is more like this

• The Terror Drone is a natural vehicle-killer, with a fair abiliy to take on infantry too (but not en-masse)
• The FlameBot is a natural infantry-killer, whilst hurting (or more likely, stalling) a vehicle requires it sacrifice itself (being an unmanned machine, no big loss).

VolteMetalic 07:23, June 5, 2012 (UTC): What do you mean? MIC will be damaging itself, or will damage others, or what?

Yes, I can see the point. FlameBot can be build again when lost, and since its small its rather cheap :)

Hazza-the-Fox 13:32, June 5, 2012 (UTC) The Mobile IC will be damaging itself. Just like when the Mastermind slowly overloads when it starts controlling too many enemy units, the Mobile IC slowly overheats when projecting a shield; the 'deploy' mode causes more damage per second, the single-unit-target mode only a little damage per second (probably in proportion to the total HP the unit being shielded, so shielding an Apoc wears the MIC down faster than a Tesla Tank). Thus the tradeoff being that the closer you activate this thing, the better, and you can either shield a tightly-clustered fire-support squad, or shield a single assault unit to charge ahead of the fray and break open the defenses. Of course, we can simply try it out without the overload, but I reckon it would make a good handicap if it proves overpowered.

Flamebot- exactly!

Hazza-the-Fox 01:44, June 11, 2012 (UTC) Oh! I had an awesome idea!

Ok, as you know in standard CNC games, the light-infantry would shoot at tanks with their machineguns and do mild damage- this will stay the same, but they will do this damage via some kind of 'grenade launcher'. So instead of doing 5 damage-per-second with their machine gun, they will do 5 damage-per-second firing grenades (at a slower rate of fire of course). Essentially, the grenade-launchers will in fact be purely aesthetic effects (it just explains that the soldiers aren't chipping into tanks with their lightweight rifles, but extra ordinance).

Furthermore, does the Red Alert 3 engine handle infantry units as groups of soldiers (like in CNC3)? I thought of a really cool way to apply something like that to the Marines and Conscripts;

• Marines come in a squad of, say 2-3, with one of the Marines having an underslung grenade launcher on his rifle, and only this soldier will be shooting at the tanks.
• Conscripts come in a group of say 3-4, and one of these conscripts has a lightweight grenade launcher or some rifle-grenades slung on his back- and only this guy will be shooting at tanks.
• In both cases, this is how they would be attacking structures. Naturally, these aren't the best armor-piercing weapons, so the proper anti-tank units are hardly redundant, but again, these units will in fact be inflicting the same damage to vehicles as the original GIs and Conscripts did in RA2.

{C}Hazza-the-Fox (talk) 05:32, August 4, 2012 (UTC) Oh! I had another good idea; I reckon, the Grand Cannon should be a 90 degree defense, like the Pillbox- that way it could pose some interesting handicaps- but remove its glaring weakness that if an enemy appears inside the base, the cannons won't spin around and blow your own base up trying to get him; thoughts?

Also, thinking about that idea above infantry units as a whole squad, (with a single grenadier visually doing the 'vehicle damage'), I just remembered that M203's were kinda meant to be the Allied Marine's special ability- so if you like the idea of Marine and Conscript squads with designated grenadiers (like in real life, plus fills the conspicuous absense of the RPG-7), we will need to think of an alternative special ability (or grenade)?

And I'm finishing up an Allied National showcase, and working on the Supply Depots (the idea is that the neutral 'warehouses' you get your supplies from will have 'rear-to-curb' vehicle bays- while the Allied and Soviet structures are like the China Depots in Generals- truck goes along a drive way in the back, a crane lifts out the supplies, and the truck drives out the other side.

Last but not least, I thought of some hypothetical Japanese upgrade possibilities.

• Dojo Barracks- instead of needing a Heroic soldier to return to train future units to the next level of veterancy, the Dojo barracks improves upon this by instantly promoting their next recruits by TWO levels of veteracy.
• Akita Breeding program- upgrades the German Shepherds to Akitas (they're essentially a gigantic pseudo-husky- combines the advantageous stats of both side's dogs).
• "Goldsteel" blades- yellow-tinted swords that can damage vehicles at twice the rate rifle-weapons would (picked yellow because it's distinct from silver- but not too psychodelic, or TOO extreme Sci-Fi- though the blades being heated to extreme temperatures to easier cut allows is a possible concession).
• Ninja anti-tank charges.

Keeping in mind, Japan DOES already get its Prism Tank enhanced by the standard T4 Prism Upgrade, so we can afford to be less generous with Japan's upgrades.

VolteMetalic (talk) 10:06, August 6, 2012 (UTC): 90° for Grand Cannon is not enough. But 180°would be better :)

Squads, hmm... I heard squads are possibly in RA3, and I am not sure how it is with swaping weapons. I remember it was tested on Conscripts, but dont remember how it ended up. If only one was able to switch to Molotov Cocktail, or all.

I am not sure how you mean it with Werehouses, but Supply Depots I understand, and welcome them :)

Upgrades for Japan, hmm? The Goldsteel Blades seems the most useful and not OP (and not changing too much the overall faction), because they are already the only faction where it changes one default unit (Marine -> Imperial Marine). The Goldsteel (maybe to make it from same material as Iron Man's armor... err, gold-titanium? Not sure now, must look on Iron Man 1 film) can upgrade both Imp Marine and Shinobi, and possibly any other infantry which uses knifes.

Hazza-the-Fox (talk) 13:49, August 6, 2012 (UTC)No probs for Grand Cannon!

Hmmm, that could prove troublesome for soldier squads- though the idea I have in mind is a little different; Say, Conscripts come in squads of 4, where 3 of the soldiers have standard AK rifles, and the fourth is a grenadier who wields an RPG Launcher (and possibly an AK too). All three/ four riflemen will fire their AKs at enemy soldiers. But against an enemy tank, only the Grenadier will be firing his RPG (perhaps the remaining squad members are free to shoot enemy soldiers?). Upon activating the Molotov special ability, ALL soldiers will holster their guns and pull out the molotovs, and run together as a group, using nothing but their molotov attack until told to switch back (easy to balance, in Molotov mode they move much faster and do excellent damage, but have very short range). Note that the RPG will be doing the exact same damage-per-second as the conscripts normally would have done against an enemy vehicle- merely that it no longer looks like the AKs are somehow damaging a tank.

Ah no problem- the Supply Depot is the structure you build- while the "Warehouse" is the replacement for the ore field. The supply trucks you will be sending out will collect their resources from these buildings (which you need to capture first), and have several loading bays the trucks reverse into- I'll do a concept soon.

"Goldsteel" it is! And very good point about the upgrade! (no Akitas? :P). As for materials, why not I say! I have no idea of any gold-colored metals that are actually strong, myself- alloys are easier, steel for example exists simply by fusing carbons onto iron. I'm not sure if this carries over to other metals though.

VolteMetalic (talk) 16:31, August 6, 2012 (UTC): I am not sure if this would be really possible to do, but maybe yes.

No, I know what they are, but how will it look like :D

No Akitas :D Just husky and shepherd are enough :) As for the precise name, I will have to take a look at the materials of Ironman's armour like I said earlier. :)

Hazza-the-Fox (talk) 23:49, August 6, 2012 (UTC)I see; I hope it would be, my alternative is to simply give each consript a rifle grenade and each marine an M203, and simply superimpose that attack instead of their bullet attack against vehicles (though it would have been awesome against structures though- where all riflemen are blasting away with their guns, and the grenadiers launching the occasional bomb at it).

Ah no probs!

Hehe, no akitas; on the note of steel I SHOULD know, I recently watched a show about contemporary swordsmithing in Japan ;). I just can't remember as none of them implied they could cut through anything out of the normal ;)

Extreme unit ideas!!!

Just going to list- these *could* be quite appropriate for some of the nations- or they could be horribly excessive;

• Mobile Gap Generator
• Mobile Iron Curtain (generates a tiny invulnerability field around self- but not ON self)
• Shadow Curtain (Iron Curtain + stealth)

I suppose, this section is the place where we throw in our most extreme and abstract unit ideas, and rip them apart :P

Hazza-the-Fox 09:00, February 26, 2012 (UTC) Actually- I just realized that some of these units probably COULD come in handy for our sides;

• A mobile Gap generator could be an interesting addition to either Italy (an interesting partner with their hit-and-run mechs), America (built into their SAM vehicle- though probably a little too powerful).
• Some kind of mobile mini-Iron Curtain (no idea how it would work) could possibly be the special function of Czechoslovakia's 'mobile fort'
• Even a 'shadow' Iron Curtain could prove useful for Yugoslavia.

Again- these units could be extremely overpowered, or hard to define- but thought to jump on a possible opening when I saw one for recommendation.

VolteMetalic 11:36, February 27, 2012 (UTC): The Gap Generator isnt a bad idea at all, and Chaparral could use it as "stealthy AA". When GAP is active, AA missiles are off, and vice versa. Thoguht i am wondering, how can it look like, like how can a GAP generator be fitted into the turret with other missiles.

Hazza-the-Fox 13:22, February 27, 2012 (UTC) It actually wouldn't be that hard to visually mix the two (SAM and Gap) together- don't forget that the missiles only need to shoot upwards- so any arrangement of simply having one (the gap generator or SAM launcher) behind the other would work fine- though I reckon mounting the SAM on top of the cockpit on the front, and having the entire rear section as a gap generator, would probably look best;

Question is, what would then compliment Italy's hit-and-run mechs?

And how about the other ideas?

(thinking about mobile IC- if it were to only be able to deploy (slowly) into a generator that emits a small IC field that renders all nearby targets invulnerable (possibly including enemies) but NOT itself- it may prove a fantastic 'defensive' decoy unit- all attackers must take the generator down before being able to harm all the units under it's coverage- which would drastically reduce the impact of hit-and-run units, like jets...)

On another note- have you ever heard of the Japanese Akita Dog? They're an insanely large, powerful hunting dog distantly related to the Husky- although I think we may have enough distinct units for Japan- I remembered that they stuck out a lot, and thought it couldn't hurt to mention them (used to know a guy who owned a few- quite the scary bunch who had a record for mauling other (dangerous) dogs and a few people- luckily they liked me and my own dog so we were never worried ...

VolteMetalic 20:26, February 27, 2012 (UTC): If the missiles have to be large to be able to deliver heavy ordnance to Kirovs, than putting it just above cockpit would look weird. But I may have an idea for the appearance :)

No idea.

Mobile IC, as I said many times, IC is thing which is nearly impossible to applicate, and I know only about two ways which are fitting, one uused by Paradox. One is to give a vehicle the IC only on front (Paradox) so it can be destroyed by flanking only, and second is to applicate it to shots, to make an "armour piercing tank shell", which can hit several targets in row.

Mobile IC is thing which I also thought about, and exactly like you :) I guess this cna be used, but not as part of Czech radio locator.

No, never heard of that kind of dog :)

Hazza-the-Fox 11:00, February 28, 2012 (UTC) Hmmm, good point- in that case, perhaps the Gap generator may actually be better for Italy (who still have no second unit)? (that said, let's hear what design you have in mind for the design).

Well there are further applications of mobile IC that could work- don't forget that the 'true' IC weapon renders an external target separate to itself invincible, whilst itself remaining vulnerable itself; so we could use this drawback too- one option is that a mobile IC targets one unit a time to cast a constant shield over same manner mind control works- the unit has to be in range initially- afterward the effect remain shielded until the 'controller' itself is destroyed or a new unit is selected. This could help 'rush' units force entry into the enemy lines by forcing the defenders to attack behind it;

The alternative is that it generates a radius field around everything BUT itself (naturally something similar would apply to the Gap generator).

Also- what do you reckon about some form of 'stealth' superweapon? (casts complete invisibility over a group).

VolteMetalic 11:09, February 29, 2012 (UTC): The design would be that it will be a truck with tracks (like real-life M48 Chaparral), but longer. Than the box on the flatbed will have on the sides 2-4 large AA missiles (not as V5, but definitely larger than Wildcat's or Mars'). And, on the box and on the back of the box will be the GAP generator, possibly the rotating "horseshoe" may be partially inside when AA mode is active, and when GAP mode is activated, the horseshoe will rise up and starts rotating. As the missiles and GAP generator are pretty large, it neds large space on flatbed. And possibly on the back of cockpit's roof may be a targeting system (simply a cylinder with a laser optic). :)

Yes, that is what I thought. That it deploys and forms a field of IC, where everything (maybe also enemy) will become invulnerable. Possibly it can retain the effect of killing any living being (possibly with exception of Tesla Trooper and Chrono-Legionnaire).. And while this, the MIC dont protect itself, and if enemy can get within range, it can mean that you must simply prevent enemy to get close enough to destroy it :)

Hazza-the-Fox 22:47, February 29, 2012 (UTC) That could work- I could design both of these versions and stand-alone and see what we think- and on that note, we'd still need to think of what Italy gets (either outcome).

I like the horseshoe design- that would be PERFECT! (been wracking my brain for an alt design- as I feared I may have used up the only probably one when I transferred the RA2 Gap 'screwdriver' relay into the Chrono stuff).

That balance sounds good! We could always impose some penalty- like the mobile IC itself takes large amounts of constant damage while the IC is active.... (and can be upgraded not to suffer this problem in T4)

VolteMetalic 09:10, March 1, 2012 (UTC): I dont know what Italy may have, hmm... And horseshoe is normal design of GAP :)

What do you mean? ... Oh, that... no, that would be too much penalty :) But it is pretty well armored, but painfully slow (as Devastator, or even slower) and unarmed. And the design would be like the time machine from Yuri's Revenge, and with iron sphere, to amke it more protected as it serves in the field.

Hazza-the-Fox 11:35, March 1, 2012 (UTC) That may be a possible issue- as the USA is getting a super AA vehicle + GAP- I dunno- I reckon perhaps the first thing to do is delve into the deep details of the SAM-aspect of the unit, and determine if it still needs a GAP on top.

(and I think there is an extra aspect to consider with Italy's hit-and-run mech; a Gap generator for them would serve the perfect compliment- a forward 'hideout' where the mechs, well, hide when they are retreating from angry defenders....

For IC- keep in mind that handicap can just come in if it proves too potent for whichever side we pick for it. I also noticed- if perhaps in non-deploy mode it can generate a shield for a single unit, the side's other national could in turn afford an armor drop. Covered sphere could work this time (generally, the designs I've been doing so far have been that mobile versions are more 'encased' than their structural counterparts (particularly Tesla engines vs the reactor I'm planning).

VolteMetalic 08:47, March 2, 2012 (UTC): Hmm. That wont much work for mech to have a GAP, or you mean GAP as independent unit?

We will see how this will turn out, as IC is really hard thing to balance.

Hazza-the-Fox 09:55, March 2, 2012 (UTC) GAP as independent unit of course; the GAP camps somewhere near a base, the Mechs attack it and then run away and hide in the GAP's stealth radius;

The beauty of this is that requiring this GAP vehicle to deploy to actually hide surrounding units, it compliments the mechs as a forward support-base, but cannot actually tail them into the battle; while the reverse, the mechs slower rate of fire means they can't actually defend a full-scale assault against the GAP drive as well as the Centurion can.

True for IC.

VolteMetalic 09:18, March 3, 2012 (UTC): I see... there is always an option for Chaparral II (nice name, isnt it? :D) can be the "full salvo" mode :) So Italy can use GAP Generator Truck..

Hazza-the-Fox 11:08, March 3, 2012 (UTC) Yep- and another thing to consider is that there are plenty of types of things a heavy SAM can launch up- jammers, flares (to prevent enemy jets from firing their own weapons)- a homing beacon for your own AA missiles to track an enemy from far away- etc.

Perhaps even a 'suicide AA volley'- the Launcher fires its entire ordinance at once- but their combined heat incinerates the launcher- (or more conservatively, simply damaged the launcher itself to be useless/used up its ammo and had to be scuttled)- the outcome is any air unit that was targeted by the attack (even a Kirov) is destroyed- but at some drastic cost.... I like the idea of being able to down any aircraft- I'm just trained in the "Emperor B4D" school of thought of the 'AA mine's M.A.D factor for enemy air.

VolteMetalic 09:56, March 5, 2012 (UTC): Maybe :) Thoguht the suicidal volley dont soudns that good at all, as Allies dont has a means to recycle this damaged behicles.

Hazza-the-Fox 12:34, March 5, 2012 (UTC)Recycle?

VolteMetalic 09:11, March 6, 2012 (UTC): Yes :) If the Chaparral II will be damaged to the point it cant fire, what will you do with it? :)

Hazza-the-Fox 11:11, March 6, 2012 (UTC) Nothing- it sacrificed itself to take out the Kirov ;)

(unless we decide that the Chaparral can eject its (now promoted) pilots to then commandeer friendly vehicles- Generals USA-style).

VolteMetalic 09:48, March 8, 2012 (UTC): That looks like a good idea, but somewhat still that you will need to invest another money for an expensive heavy AA platform, without any money to return back after the "critical damage", it seems to me too much risk :)

Hazza-the-Fox 09:07, March 9, 2012 (UTC) It could work out a few ways- but if we've chosen AA flares I think it matters not anymore ;)

So, with that aside, perhaps Italy gets the mobile GAP generator;

And that leaves any remaining options for Czechoslovakia and Yugoslavia.

VolteMetalic 07:32, March 10, 2012 (UTC): So, the American Chapparal II will have the full salvo or flares, Italy will gain GAP generator truck...

Yugoslavia... I dont know, but Czechoslovakia already has that fort-radar vehicle :)

Hazza-the-Fox 00:18, March 11, 2012 (UTC) Yep!

Secondly, I was thinking the fort-radar is a little too indistinct- though I guess it also solves problems to keep it there, and give Yugo a mobile IC device. (the only remaining new idea is some kind of 'stealth curtain' superweapon- though that may prove a little redundant admittedly.

More Nationals

Hazza-the-Fox 01:11, February 14, 2012 (UTC) Just moved the conversation up here instead- make it easier to edit the nations. Hazza-the-Fox 10:51, February 3, 2012 (UTC) Ok, before we start making sub-categories for these things, we could have a list of potential ideas. The first thing to clarify however is that in many cases, these additional units, abilities etc are more a secondary compliment to the side that needs it- especially when it comes to helping their main unit function- as such, they can afford to be weaker/less spectacular or distinctive- but simply fill in what feels 'missing' from the side.

The list of potentials;

• Two new ships (what exactly I'm not sure- though this could incorporate the gunboats- unless we decide we need those- the other option is the Trident and Junker become nationals)- note that we don't necessarily have to make the boats Italy/Yugoslavia, as their naval theater of war is quite small compared to the Pacific
• Japan could get some worthwhile infantry unit/cyborg/battlesuit potentially to the style of the Empire- also depends if we are still keeping Japan as the "Prism" nation (with the Prism Tank)- although it makes little difference as a soldier easily compliments a slow-firing support vehicle. I'd think either an armored guy (samurai theme) or a stealth guy (ninja theme). Though the problem is what does he do? I'd probably draw the line from energy swords (though strangely, an ultra-refined blade to cut infantry with would be fine for me- possibly sapper abilities.
• Turkey's obvious second is an infantry unit that would fit nicely in the Battle Fortress- possibly a flamethrower guy or a mortar guy (the Battle Fortress would thus best use the other weapon type- so if we pick flamethrower guy, the Fortress uses a mortar instead).
• The Soviets could get that "Chaos Superweapon" (and possibly Psi Tower defense)- though something like that is best suited for a side that either has a national infantry unit- or is really short on combat options (Russia with the Mastermind might possibly work- Chaos the enemy while the Mastermind tries to approach, and act as a defense when Mastermind is away).
• Complimentary infantry I think are probably best served for nations that are stuck with support vehicles or runway aircraft (of course, a non-France allied nation may, for example, transfer the 'bomb trap' secondary (Oslo could be a good candidate).
• It also depends if we want units to cover for the drawbacks of the other national- or accentuate the advantage.

Perhaps a list of the nationals is in order.

VolteMetalic 14:50, February 3, 2012 (UTC): Yup. Sometimes I thought that each country would have several unique units, not just one, like Japan would have the Prism Tank, some kind of samurai-ninja-armoured infantry, and maybe a ship. Or something like the generals in zero Hour, that some units are unavailable for one country, and is supplemented by another. But take this idea out of head for now.

The Japan infantry would the samurai for sure, but the thing is if he would be partially also a ninja. he would be a anti-infantry specialist, who can slice the infantry with ease by Prism-bladed katana and wearing very durable armorsuit, so he can take some damage.

And for Allied country which would need something as their normal National is support one (like Oslo's Chrono Relay), a light tank, armed with light repeater gun. It can be fast (faster than Kodiak and Mauler, but slower than Flak Raider) which can flank enemy Maulers and in greater numbers take it down.

For the ships, the Allied gunboat sounds fine, but now I am thinking, what would be given to Soviets. Thought I had an idea for an amphibious combat ship...

Listing all Nationals will make it easier.

Hazza-the-Fox 23:44, February 3, 2012 (UTC) I hear ya

I was tempted to do something Generals-style, and certainly the option is still there- though I was primarily weighing up the Red Alert 2 style first.

For the Samurai- I'd actually opt to give him a pure metal blade made of some higher refined alloy (perhaps sharpened with Prism particles)- and yes, armored and charging infantry- and their secondary (perhaps a one-shot grenade launcher- so they shoot a volley, then charge).

For Oslo, I was thinking of some kind of infantry (some kind of huntsman) that had some backup Chrono Powers- like setting up chrono-displacement/slow-down traps (borrowed from Paratrooper)- but tank is good thinking.

Let's hear the ship ideas (also, looking at the map, I think Korea is the best Soviet nation to be getting ships, and USA,UK or even ANZAC for the Allies.)

So, listing the Nations (and thinking about it, some very mild assistant to the primary unit is a good model);

UPDATE- looking over these, I actually think we're better off thinking of some more special-abilities to supplement the second option, rather than units per-se. ONLY in cases where a unit would really compliment the nation (eg Turkey and Japan) would we want to go with it.

ALLIED

• North America: Centurion (rather rounded suppressive fire infantry- so there really isn't anything major to add to him- so I'd recommend either the gunboat, a light reserve power, or a very cheap light flamethrowing drone aircraft.
• Japan: Prism Tank as the primary, Samurai-type guy as secondary (whose melee adds a nice cover for the long-ranged support vehicle)
• Brazil- Atlas (rather versatile unit- in fact, they'd probably be THE best candidate for the gunboat, as they have the most all-terrain-ish unit in their arsenal).
• UK- Hurricane Sonic Bomber; so some mildly powerful general-combat/trapper unit (probably on the ground) would be fine.
• France: Grand Cannon as primary, Paratrooper as secondary (while the cannon defends, the Paratrooper jumps deep into enemy lines to cause trouble)
• Germany: Nashorn Tank Destroyer- a general anti-armor all-round combat-and-support unit. For anti-infantry and anti-air I think the German player can simply make-do with what he's got- so I reckon a support power might be in order.
• Italy: Siege mech. light and fast. I'd say it's already quite well-rounded for skirmishing and hit-and-runs.
• Oslo Group; Chrono-Relay. a vulnerable ultra-long-range indirect-attack support siege unit- that brings a similar form of fire-distracting attack that the RA2 V3 launcher did. The player can always protect the relay with what he already has, so perhaps either a reserve power, or a unit that can stall attackers.
• Turkey- Battle Fortress with either a flamethrower and/or mortar. So I think their perfect compliment is a flamethrower/mortar soldier (note, the Fortress gets one weapon type, the soldier gets strictly the other)!
• ANZAC- M-COM short-range heavy ambush/stealth/infiltration unit. So I'd probably suggest a good 'distractor', possibly a cheap air unit, like that flamethrowing drone

SOVIET

• Russia- Mastermind- a good candidate for a minor psychic superweapon?
• Poland- Desolator- pretty rounded already- perhaps Poland gets to build Nuclear power plants instead of Tesla Reactors- which transmit radioactive attacks to the Tesla Coil, and enhance the Desolator's ability to harm vehicles (note- I thought that perhaps the Advanced Lab drastically increases the output of existing power generators by overseeing isotopes).
• Ukraine- Crazy Ivan- guerrilla-style guy with mostly indirect attacks- perhaps a small, weak, cheap cruise-missile fighter jet may compliment? I dunno.
  • (note, possible switch with Poland for primary unit)
• Czechoslovakia- Tesla Tank- so some kind of EMP drone (maybe launched by air)?
• Yugoslavia- Werewolf- fills a fast skirmish and direct-combat role (as well as short-range heavy offensive)- so perhaps a support power?
• Cuba (Skunk)- being a runway craft, either some protective ground unit (RPG trooper?),
• Libya- Nuke truck- strictly offensive. Perhaps a humble long-range rifleman (less than a sniper though) or an RPG trooper?
• China Cricket (being an air-and-ground siege unit, I'd say they are a good candidate for the ship)
• Korea: Magnetron (a good candidate for either a ship or short-range combat unit, perhaps)
• Vietnam: Fallout Fort and Vietkong (fallout Fort defends, Vietkong conduct guerilla warfare)

This serves a good overview of what we are dealing with- I think next we aught to (if necessary) tackle one nation at a time, because each of these units brings up a lot of gameplay considerations and abiltiies to weigh up.

VolteMetalic 09:22, February 4, 2012 (UTC): Absolutely agree, lets make it one by one, but switching between factions (so start with North America, Russia, Japan, Poland, Brazil...)

Italy and Yugoslavia's Mechs

Hazza-the-Fox 23:06, February 14, 2012 (UTC) Ok, a quick conversation for both mechs to iron out some differences (feel free to decide if this is better underneath the Gladiatior and/or Werewolf categories once we're done reading this;

The Werewolf is a speedy attack unit that uses a slow-ROF chaos gun (at mid-shortish OR even long-ish range could work- noting that it aught not overlap the PsiCorps too much- and that the shorter its range, the higher its ROF can be), and can lunge on enemy targets, crushing most of them underfoot but becoming temporarily immobile. In thinking of this, having it shorter ranged (Shorter than the Conscripts, that is- maybe even the small-arms infantry) with a mildly higher ROF (though still slower than say, a Kodiak) may be the most functional way to place it. It attacks a singular target who then in turn attacks other targets- thus making it the only short-ranged hit-and-run unit in the game (and the only unit that could pull it off)

The Gladiator Battlesuit thus needs to be something different. Its range would be longer (Marine-range to maybe even Devestator Range), its movement, though fast, is slower than the werewolf (still being able to outrun any human or possibly dog). It can fire on the move and does not need to deploy to launch its attack (differentiating it from any Mortar Troopers and such).

Question is, what would that attack be? In particular, it must be different from

• The tanks and Nashorn(direct hit-high damage)
• The Werewolf (closer-range hard-hitting weapon)
• The Centurion (suppressive fire weapon taken)
• the Mars Missile Tank (huge area effect weapon taken)
• The Siege Hopper (ultra-mobile hard-hitting gun taken)
• The Mortar Trooper (heavy mortar taken)

Perhaps it occupies a niche somewhere in between? Peppering targets with multiple light shells from a multishot slow-reload gun?

VolteMetalic 10:39, February 15, 2012 (UTC): Why it cant have high-caliber gun? And Werewolf, lets make it short ranged.

Hazza-the-Fox 11:49, February 15, 2012 (UTC) Hmmm, no particular reason it can't be high caliber actually- I guess it depends what exactly we want it to do that the likes of a Guardian-Wildcat or the fairly speedy Kodiak can't do themselves. (now we have sorted this out, we could probably return to the Gladiator Mech page)

Agree on werewolf- and on that note- working on an awesome concept for it- was originally trying a sickle-esqe chassis, but it looked blobby with all the accessories- but trying a vaguely 'wolf's head' design for kicks- and bizarrely it looks great with everything fitting in quite well! It's not explicitly a wolf head, but vaguely in shape and layout- The 'gun' is the 'snout' the cockpit is the 'cranium', and the booster jets are the 'ears'- 6 legs are the 'teeth'- and I could always add a painted face on it too.

VolteMetalic 21:13, February 16, 2012 (UTC): Yeah, a high caliber like a 152mm howitzer mounted on KV-2, something in this way :)

Aha, I see with the design :) Thought maybe you can add the thrusters on underside.

Hazza-the-Fox 23:38, February 17, 2012 (UTC) Maybe, as I said, we'd need to discuss what exactly the function of this unit is that seperates it from the other longer-ranged heavy-hitting units (in the Italy's Gladiator Battlesuit discussion of course) ;)

Cool- tried underside- kinda clashes with the legs ;)

Italy's "Gladiator" Battlesuit

Hazza-the-Fox 10:51, February 3, 2012 (UTC)Italy would get a moderately quick (chicken leg) walker mech with a light artillery and/or light long-range skrimish/combat package. Basically a Juggernaut Jr. Very small crew (possibly just one guy)? He could launch a salvo of light shells to pepper a small area, doing some nice minor area effect damage (much tighter and quicker-firing than the MARS, but a lot weaker and more specialized against one type of target perhaps. He could possibly be amphibious (legs could have keels on the back to be used as hydrofoils).

Secondary could probably be two or three things;

• toggle artillery/walker settings (although having a mobile artillery platform could prove more interesting)
• Fire a small SAM barrage
• Jumps?

VolteMetalic 11:52, February 3, 2012 (UTC): The bipedal mech is certainly on place. Probably be able to cross these moutnaisn they have in Italy. Maybe he cna be as partially a scout and light bombardment unit, maybe armed with mortar or howitzer, which can deal great damage, but it takes time to reload so it can run away. For Secondary, not sure yet.

it could be something like Italian "peacekeepr" :)

Hazza-the-Fox 12:32, February 3, 2012 (UTC) Ah, an excellent rationale for the mech!

Sounds great- scout and light bombardment unit!

Weapon idea sounds just as good too- I think, like the Werewolf, we will need to figure out what the Allies and all their nations are currently lacking in terms of firepower, and give the werewolf that.

We may also want to consider how not to let it become too close to Siege Hopper (though this is unlikely to happen anyway)

Ditto on secondary- whatever the weapon leaves lacking, the secondary would probably fill.

VolteMetalic 14:50, February 3, 2012 (UTC): It dont matters if it will take Siege Hopper's job, because first, they are from different factions and that isnt a problem, and second, as how I meant it, the "howitzer" isnt more like an true artillery, but a means of carryinga big gun on smaller chassis. Its like tanks in WW2. There were many tanks which carried howitzers, but they were not very effective agaisnt other armor but more agaisnt structures. For example, KV-2 and American M8 Scott (variant of M5 Stuart). For Gladiator, it would serve as a scout, armed with a short-range high-caliber gun. It can deal great damage, but needs more time to relaod, and so it is sort of "hit&run". Gladiators runs to enemy, fire their guns on enemy and cause big damage and tha quickly leave.

Hazza-the-Fox 00:01, February 4, 2012 (UTC) That would make the general idea quite nicely. I think I'd like the theme for these to be a little more into the combat, so I'd probably give them a range about that of the Devestator (further than tanks, but shorter than artillery), but they get some extra shots in (either they are cheap and massable, or they carry some extra guns like the Juggernaut or Minotaurus. Speed definitely faster than any siege unit, but perhaps could be easily outrun by chasing terror drones, and would only get a head start on the speedier tanks and armored cars.

Actually I dunno- there are a lot of directions we could be taking this unit with these weapons and capabilities (though admittedly the Minotaurus mech being the most obvious point of reference- being quite a spectacular unit).

VolteMetalic 09:12, February 4, 2012 (UTC): Yeah, they can be massable and are armed with just one mortar. Of course, Terror Drones and Flak Raiders can catch up :) The Minotaur (I think it is its name now) has weak armor and long reload time.

Hazza-the-Fox 13:49, February 4, 2012 (UTC) The Minotaurus (they added a "us" at the end of the name- though "Minotaur" is the correct spelling for the monster it's based on)- its difference was it had 4 guns which fired in quick secession, before reloading (like, one/two shots per second before taking about 3-6 seconds to reload)- which made it a rather unpredictable unit. However, I did include the MARS with that style vaguley in mind too.

I think that could work- perhaps moving with the speed and attacking with the damage of the RA2 robot tank- only with about double/tripple the range (Devestator/Flak Trooper range)...

Design-wise- chicken legs, blocky chassis, large cannon on top/rear. Possibly a nose-gun (which might imply another option- switches between mortar and nose machinegun (perhaps medium-ranged, armor-piercing, moderate rate of fire?)

A lot of options.

VolteMetalic 12:39, February 5, 2012 (UTC): Its pretty difficult now to think about it :D I would give it a short, but wide gun, something like CnC4 Juggernaut has. That place it on the front of the chassis, little move to the side so on the other will be the friver/gunner and loader behind him. If there will be any other weapon, it would be placed on the sides.

Hazza-the-Fox 13:42, February 5, 2012 (UTC) OR in reverse, the mortar(s) on its sides, the driver/gunner in between and to front, with a gun to the front of them- ah hell, this is getting tricky- will have to sleep on it!

Hazza-the-Fox 15:34, February 11, 2012 (UTC) Ok, did some number cruching and light artillery is still definitely the best option, with quite a few possibilies open; Either serving as a one-shot very light mech, or a multi-shot almost-as-light mech (a Juggernaut Jr).

I think that having a passive ability to leap up (or at least leap off) cliffs would pose an excellent mobility boost to really annoy enemy pursuers.

A secondary ability could possibly be self-repair (reinforces it as a hit-and-run).

The only thing to weigh up is the possibility of Turkey maybe getting a Mortar soldier- which actually only proposes some very mild slant to Jugg Jr option. Keeping in mind, that having a multi-shot artillery unit is what Mars does- BUT, Mars fires a broad spammy cone for large area-effect, while this mech can fire properly in a very tight cone actually close to its intended target. Also, there is the option of making the rounds incendiary- making its attack double as a pseudo 'minefield' layer ;)

The design is straightforward- typical egg-bodied chicken mech- only it has its artillery guns poking out its nose, and crew compartment in the rear.

SAMs would be a bit redundant (Wildcat already serves the purpose).

VolteMetalic 10:48, February 12, 2012 (UTC): A Juggernaut Jr soudns like a real nice idea, really :D But I dont meant it as artillery at all, but as a light big-hitter, like KV-2 (well, that was heavy tank, but I mean now the M8 Scott, which was made from light M5 Stuart) Not that it can bombard froma distance, just be armed with howitzer. So it wont collide with Turkish Mortar guy.

Self-repair for hit-&-runner? :P

Hazza-the-Fox 13:22, February 12, 2012 (UTC)Good points- I like that idea too-

Self-repair does have a logic to it- though I can also see your point..

What do you think of the cliff-jumping attribute? (helps increase his escape chances, while allowing speed reductions if necessary).

Ok, we'll have to re-look into ROF, damage, range, speed and splash/not again (I'll do the number crunch a second time).

VolteMetalic 12:00, February 13, 2012 (UTC): Possible only by Secondary. I know that it is possible to make it that unit can jump "off" the cliff, not "on". Just like Engineers and Sandstorm from CnC4.

Hazza-the-Fox 00:46, February 14, 2012 (UTC) Are you certain? (GLA bikes could do it normally in ZH- and I think even factor cliffs to jump off as a normal part of their route)

For the attack- we should probably consider to eliminate roles that the WildCat's passengers can do also- so I reckon two probable paths;

1. Fast, medium range, multi-shot mid/heavy-ish guns to do some close-range skirmish damage (there is however the fast, close-range group-attacking flamebot to keep in mind of course- otherwise allied units are more arms-length, slow ROF fighters)
2. Slightly slower (but still quick) longer-range multi-shot unit (Guardian range)

Keep in mind I reckon that whichever one we choose for this unit, we should choose the OTHER for the Werewolf's Chaos gun (so these units are harder to compare- noting that the chaos gun would technically be much better by virtue of that it instantly reduces enemy numbers and adds to the numbers of enemies of themselves)

VolteMetalic 10:33, February 14, 2012 (UTC): Thats very different, as it is engine thing. The cliffs in Generals were just heightened ground, onyl that part of the "terrain" was coded as "not-pass-able" for units,a nd only Bikes and Burton can cross them. Cliffs in RA3 are truly cliffs, which arent terrain but more of an object. So you cant climb them by unit, its engine thing. I have seen only to make it that unit can jump off the cliff, not on.

I am getting confused again.

Hazza-the-Fox 22:31, February 14, 2012 (UTC) Oh I see- I guess then if it must be special ability it would make this thing too much like the werewolf, so maybe not. And I think we may need to have a conversation in the parent directory "Italy and Yugoslavia's Mechs" to start deciding the final details for both of these units to ensure they fill a distinctive roll from each other.

VolteMetalic 10:39, February 15, 2012 (UTC): Ok.

Hazza-the-Fox 11:58, February 15, 2012 (UTC) So, getting back to your question as to why it can't be high-caliber, it simply depends what we want to do with it (square 1 again :P)

• A slow-firing long-ish ranged weapon on a fast chassis is currently what the Wildcat carrying a Guardian, and the Kodiak Tank both do (both at about 1400). Note the Guardian is Long-range (longer than tanks), and Kodiak is Med-Long range (typical Tank range)
• Hard-hitting direct-assault is covered by the Nashorn (not sure if it's a speedy unit though)
• And getting in the way of Jugg Jr; mass-area damage is covered by the Sonic Tank and Mars (and in some ways, the Prism Tank)- however, these are not hit-and-run units.
• Short-range low ROF heavy-caliber hit-and-run is Werewolf territory- and long-range heavy-hitting hit-and-run is Cricket territory- and even though it does stand apart being on opposite sides, I think ensuring that neither of these units overlap too closely to be comparable is a good idea.

So we'd want to think of what kind of 'niche' this unit fills with these in mind. Needless to say, this definitely isn't going to be easy. :P

VolteMetalic 10:45, February 19, 2012 (UTC): It isnt long-ranged unit, rather the opposite. As it has low-velocity shells, it can effectively fire only to short ranges, lower than tanks probably, or as long as MBTs.

Hazza-the-Fox 13:27, February 19, 2012 (UTC) Hmmm- that could be interesting too- I think if its shorter-ranged (or comparable) to a tank- it should probably carry multiple splashing shots again (3 or 4) with a slow-ish ROF in between- add some light group-hitting carnage perhaps- OR, it could fire lighter shells (lighter than a Mauler that is) at a higher rate than even a Mauler- so it's starting to approach the bridge between the tanks and the likes of the Sentry Cannon?

VolteMetalic 10:19, February 20, 2012 (UTC): Deceasing the caliber will decrease the firepower. And unless it will be like Juggernaut be design it will be pretty impossible to reload the guns.

Hazza-the-Fox 23:21, February 20, 2012 (UTC) A broad salvo of smaller rounds easily compensates for their individual inferiority to a big round. Alternatively, if it shot some kind of light napalm round, it could have a similar bonus as the Desolator of rendering the positions of the enemies it shoots unsafe to stand on, forcing them to relocate- actually, this could work quite nicely in itself- some kind of incendiary-round (light volley or single heavy).

Don't worry about functional design specs- I'll handle those ;)

VolteMetalic 12:52, February 21, 2012 (UTC): The guns needs space, and ammunition even more. We wills ee how you will handle it, but you are making it more of a Juggernaut copy, only smaller and much weaker. My idea is unique :)

Hazza-the-Fox 13:02, February 21, 2012 (UTC) We shall see ;)

Generally, the design is a more horizotnally 'elongated' chassis (like a chicken), the legs are in the 'middle' of the length, the whole fore-section is for the gun, and the rear-section holds the crew ;)

I think I'll have to do a large 'combo sketch' of some of the stuff I'm working on...

VolteMetalic 10:53, February 22, 2012 (UTC): Rear section? Behind the guns? :D It will needs to be really huge, practically negating the light mech thing, as crew will ahev to be pretty far from the guns, otherwise the recoil of the guns will smash them. :)

Hazza-the-Fox 11:49, February 22, 2012 (UTC) That then asks if we are wanting a chicken mech (ED209-style- but large enough for a pilot or small crew) or a 'suit' mech for a single person. as the first option would ultimately need to be fairly large anyway...

VolteMetalic 08:27, February 23, 2012 (UTC): Two crew can be enough, a driver and radio operator and commander as one, and gunner and loader as second. My idea was that they will be sitting on one side, and the large gun on the other. So chicken, but still even 3 guns sounds great (I am big fan of Juggernaut), but to work for a small "scout walker", it is not useable because it needs a space. Maybe Juggernaut as large artillery/self-propelled gun (as TD) can be as some campaign unit for Allies. :)

Hazza-the-Fox 12:25, February 23, 2012 (UTC) I was simply thinking one of these two; (in both cases, the mech has a more 'elongated' body (mechwarrior/ED209) rather than upgright and squarelike (or tanklike) as the Tiberian mechs. In both cases, the cockpit is actually built into the chassis, rather than pivoting turrets (reduces size).

1. the gun would simply be in the middle/front (like a nose), and the crew on either side more to the rear. The gun is ball-pivot, and only fires 90 degress frontwards, but it has a small missile launcher or machinegun on the roof for 360 action.
2. The crew sits forward (side-by-side) the main gun is more on the rear roof-side (like a scorpion), leaving a smaller 90 degree belly gun.

And in case you were wondering- yes, a more innocent artist could easilly make option 1 could potentially look like a disembodied man's legs with a huge erection- BUT I know better than that and can easily make it look more like a chicken ;P

Yugoslavia's "Werewolf"

Hazza-the-Fox 10:51, February 3, 2012 (UTC) So, we have a quadupedal spider mech- extremely fast, fairly heavily armored. Much heavier than the Sickle, maybe comparable to that "Reaper" mech. I reckon it should definitely be able to jump up/down cliffs like the Sickle could, and over walls. It's reasonably large- comparable to a tank and has about the equivalent in crew.

Question is what weapons should it get? I think there is enough melee/short ranged units, and enough long/siege range units on the Soviet side- I think our first question would be what kind of play-style am I leaving out? Potentially this is a beautiful rusher, fast-strike,ambush,harasser unit.

Special abilities- same deal, as Italy's mech- could either

• Switch fire modes
• Unleash and air barrage (though this would be close to the Devestator- which isn't so bad for Italy as they have nothing close)
• Do what the "Reaper" did- leap on a vehicle and squash it- breaking its legs in the process and leaving it a stationary defense (though on-board repair bots tend to that- quickly restoring functionality and allowing the Werewolf to walk again!)
• One design element would look cool- a big nose gun.

VolteMetalic 11:52, February 3, 2012 (UTC): Yeah, jumping would be used, but the question really is, with what it cna be armed? Personally I dont really know, as it would be too similar to Sickle, or some other mechs in RA3 Paradox, or to our other Soviet vehicles.

Hazza-the-Fox 12:46, February 3, 2012 (UTC) Hmmm, it looks like we'll have to jump into the nitty-gritty and analyze a few attacks; note that we made our job a little easier- if we agree it should pounce and turn into a temporary turret- then our armament is narrowed down to some kind of nice forward-assault weapon that also makes a good stationary (but also is perfect for leaping over walls and tearing apart people on the other side).

• A ground-only medium-light Flak gun (splash damage, medium-injury against all targets- medium range, possibly with a reasonably good rate of fire)- though it sounds a bit odd
• It also may depend on the function of the Flak Raider's armament (both units serve a somewhat similar role of fast assault vehicle). The Flak gun's current armament is AA-only artillery flak and a series of anti-infantry grenade launchers that shoot VERY splashy flak shells- either that, or a fairly heavy machinegun flak).
• It would also need to be a weapon that is medium ranged, and isn't geared to anti-tank or just anti-infantry (plenty of specialists in both fields for Soviets).

VolteMetalic 14:50, February 3, 2012 (UTC): Yeah, the temporary turret is good idea. The weaponry, Flak is good, but I think it would be soem high-caliber gun, mroe than Flak Raiders, and with ground-only option. But the splash can be still present. In theory it can be also armed with a machine gun turret... maybe something like American M3 Lee tank with its weapon layout (but design-wise to be symetrical).

Hazza-the-Fox 23:54, February 3, 2012 (UTC)Hmm, so some high-explosive cannon of some sort.... That could work. Machinegun could be added to- I am definitely leaning towards having this thing harm a group with each attack, and it should probably have a moderately high rate of fire (with machinegun adding some suppressive support perhaps)- and I think it should do damage that steps into 'armor piercing' but not anti tank per se (if it comes down to it, the Werewolf can either retreat, attack with superior numbers, or simply jump on the tank and crush it)

VolteMetalic 09:12, February 4, 2012 (UTC): Or maybe, it cna be armed with a missile launcher, like a Soviet "Missile Tanks", missiles fired agaisnt tanks :)

Hazza-the-Fox 13:42, February 4, 2012 (UTC) Maybe- that too (depends if we want the Werewolf to be some kind of hit-and-run unit, or some kind of active combatant 'blitzing' into the scene). I think we'll have to do a list of the Soviet units AND nationals, and weigh up how many have certain shortcomings against what kinds of enemies (along with what attack forms the Soviets are lacking in their fast units), and use the werewolf as a balance.

VolteMetalic 12:39, February 5, 2012 (UTC): Agree, thought I think it would be active combatant, but lets see it in the big picture.

Hazza-the-Fox 13:41, February 5, 2012 (UTC) Ok, let's see how this goes;

• Conscript- general light anti-infantry fire
• Flak Trooper- long-range light mortar fire- splash damage against infantry
• Dog, Pariah, Tesla Trooper AND terr or Drone = short-range high-damage melee, fast and slow alike, and anti infantry, infantry-structure-heavy vehicle, extreme general unit and general unit attacks each.
• Psychic- one-on-one long-range combatant/neutralizer- general unit.
• Flak Raider- speedy medium-short-range, semi-rapid, light and splash anti-infantry/light-armor-piercing attack (whether machinegun or side-grenade launchers)
• Mauler- General anti-vehicle gun- fairly speedy and moderately high rate of fire (compared to other tanks), also has modest anti-infantry capabilities
• V5- slow siege missile
• Devestator- gigantic twin-barreled self-propelled gun- specializes against enemy armor and tanks.
• Crazy Ivan- short-ranged grenadier, minelayer and bomber/sapper. Infiltrator.
• Desolator- anti-infantry armor-piercing sniper and radioation spreader. Weak against tanks/heavy armor till Heroic, as well as Heavy infantry.
• Tesla Tank- extreme damage against all targets at short range. Also mass-infantry killer at short range.
• Cricket Siege Hopper- I think we agreed anti-base-and-vehicle howitzer- not much splash but high damage. VERY good at long-range hit-and-run.
• Magnetron- anti-skirmisher unit with an indirect ranged attack and corresponding insta-kill melee.
• Mastermind- ultra-heavy and slow, medium-ranged mobile disaster area. Arguably a suicide-unit. Very easy to avoid, but forces enemies out of the way.
• Nuke truck- speedy nuclear suicide truck.

So, we would be counting the attack types, area-effect attacks, range-types, and what the fast units do- and more importantly, for what purpose the Soviets would need another fast unit.

Hazza-the-Fox 00:24, February 7, 2012 (UTC) So, with that in mind, I think that:

The "Werewolf" is a fast, medium-armor unit with medium-range (possibly mildly on the short-side). Its rate of fire is fairly fast (faster than the Mauler). And its attack does splash (or affects multiple enemies at a time)

I thought of one possible attack- CHAOS! it shoots at a group, and inflicts them with the Chaos effect (in that case it should probably be shorter-ranged, would need to instead be a cyborg psychic piloting the chassis, rather than a crew of gunners- the flipside is that the 'werewolf' name will get an extra meaning- and the attack will be something that no other unit quite exactly does)

The alternative, is again, some kind of semi-rapid meidum-heavy flak gun (about halfway between 88mm and the rapid-fire versions) or fires volleys of boched flak Shells at a time- (if we wanted to strip this off the Raider).

VolteMetalic 11:50, February 7, 2012 (UTC): The chaos attack sounds good, but I would give it also some melee attack, to truly make it "werewolf" :D Like the leaping can be part of the attack, or something.

Hazza-the-Fox 12:52, February 7, 2012 (UTC) Agreed- so- I think simply that its attacks should be leaping on enemies, and firing 'chaos shots'. Question is, which is the primary, and which the secondary? Some things to think about are (they just struck me):

1. Chaos is an extremely potent weapon, and an ability to fire this weapon relentlessly may prove to make it indestructible as it would simply turn every unit that approached it berserk with little gaps to retaliate. So therefore it needs to take a LONG time for the next shot to charge, needs to be shorter-ranged (so units can retaliate properly), not target whole groups possibly- or a combination of the above.
2. Its leap attack; I quite like this idea- though we'd need to discuss how we'd handle it. I do think the 'secondary' leap on a single vehicle target (or infantry squad) and crushing it but busting its own legs is a good one- as it is both reminiscent of the terror drone, but wildly different (with a new set of advantages and disadvantages). As a normal attack might be a bit tricky to explain (and would potentially be simply a more expensive terror drone).
3. So I think that the primary attack should be the 'Chaos Gun', with some combination of nerfs suggested in point 1- and its secondary is the 'leap-crush-break-legs' attack (only this version lacks any armor bonus- but self-repairs so it can soon walk again). I think this is definitely the best order, as not only does it mean the melee attack is a major one, but it means that instead of a melee unit that occasionally casts a spell- its a spellcaster unit that can leap on an enemy and rip him apart! On top of that, if its primary attack nerfed, once it leaps, it risks being a stationary shooter with its listed disadvantages, minus the ability to run away and wait for the chaos to do its work for it.
4. The chaos weapon could be one of two things. A strange energy-based weapon/transmitter on the vehicle that simply transmits a psychic 'Chaos' signal to the victim (is probably the most logical as to why it only attacks one unit at a time)- while the other could be a physical gun that fires a warhead with some kind of chaos-inducing toxin (though it may prove tricky to explain why it can pierce the armor of tanks to inject gas inside, while hitting only one guy without killing him). I'd probably go with the first option, as it also opens up some interesting designs for the vehicle.

So what do you think? It leaps on enemy's backs, AND it induces savage insanity! Werewolf through-and-through in my opinion!

VolteMetalic 19:22, February 7, 2012 (UTC): Hmm... I think that it may be little different. The primary attack can be the melee attack, where it will be tearing apart.enemies. It will need heavy armoring on the front. As Secondary, it can jump close to enemy and damage them, but looses ability to move for some time. During this time, it cant attack with its "pincers", now it can use the Chaos beam. The Psychic inside will finally have time to aim, as the mech isnt constantly moving. That can make it even :) And it needs little longer to reload. Like we say, "wolf id fed and sheep is intact". :)

Hazza-the-Fox 00:36, February 8, 2012 (UTC) That's a good idea too- though we wouldn't be able to use this guy as a hit-and-run with his chaos ability in that case. Depends what we make of the chaos ability (as either way we choose, it becomes his 'standard' attack, and needs a few drawbacks so enemeis can approach it. And with that in mind, his survivability is much longer if he can use his gun while mobile-

Unless- is it possible to have the werewolf discriminate against non-berserk units and berserk units in how it attacks them? (and by extension if it were possible to 'flag' a berserk unit as a different unit)? If so- then perhaps, if told to manually attack a berserk unit (or berserk-immune robot), the Werewolf will use his standard melee against them? If not told to attack directly, he simply hangs back and keep shooting chaos shots at them?

VolteMetalic 08:20, February 8, 2012 (UTC): Thats hardly possible. There cna be made that primary attack is melee, and as "secondary" it is chaos attack. And now I dont speak about abiltiy, but attack. Basically, Werewolf will be closing to enemy, as melee is short ranged so he must be in the needed distance, and while he will be doing so the Chaos gun will be firing too on the target. The problem is, that it will require micromanagment to set target for the Chaos gun, but when you command to attack unit, the gun will fire, but Werewolf will also try to run to the enemy and smash it.

Hazza-the-Fox 12:48, February 8, 2012 (UTC) Hmmm, in that case I think the reverse order of the two abilities may be better- Chaos gun for primary, leap attack for secondary. As it may actually prove easier to balance the two abilities in that order (the Chaos gun is simply slow-firing, not-so-good ranged and only affects one unit with each shot- warranting hit-and-run tactics- while the killer-jump solves itself), as well as make this unit far more unusual to fight- We may be expecting a fast potent melee unit with a sneaky magic spell as his trump card (we'd be forced to take an instant casualty and try to take him down before he closed the distance)- but a fast sneaky magician that keeps running away but whose trump card is an unblockable melee attack when cornered is a lot harder to work around. The flipside is, if the Werewolves happened to outnumber the group (or the group were tightly-packed), the Werewolves could simply jump on them immediately and kill the lot.

VolteMetalic 16:43, February 8, 2012 (UTC): Than it cant have a "melee" attack, just strictly the "Hi Jump" attack.

Hazza-the-Fox 01:33, February 9, 2012 (UTC) I think it's better that way- the 'lunging on the target to kill them' is pretty werewolfish, and I think it helps make a more functionally distinguished unit.

That aside- I've been crunching the numbers and I've noticed that the Soviets already have a LOT of close-ranged attack units of varying types (and in particular, speedy melee units already in the form of the Terror Drone and Tesla Tank). However they have hardly any speedy hard-hitting middle-ranged units.

VolteMetalic 12:32, February 9, 2012 (UTC): So, what do you suggest? ... now an idea struck me, a missile tank...

Hazza-the-Fox 12:50, February 9, 2012 (UTC) I was actually thinking that the Werewolf itself should by the mid-range speedy hard-hitter by use the Chaos Gun as its primary attack. That way it instantly stands out.

But hold onto that idea just in case- we may well need it for the other nations.

And finally appearance; I was thinking of using the Sickle/Reaper-style chassis, only instead of guns, it has 'spikes' that relay the Chaos signal- either facing forward (looking like an array of bayonets/teeth facing forward) or on its back (looking like a bristly hairy porcupine mane)- keeping in mind the need for positions where the Psychic pilot enters/sits inside. It would also have a lot of smaller cutting arms below- like a terror drone.

Germany's "Panzer Marine/Panzergrenadier"

VolteMetalic (talk) 10:46, August 6, 2012 (UTC): Little stupid idea, but as Japan has their own version of basic infantry, what about giving Germany their own too? Because even they have connection to sea, their primary emphasis for infantry would be motorized combat. And Mechanized/motorized infantry of Germany are "Panzergrenadiers" :) Possibly using the same weapon as normal Marine, with the grenade launcher, but these would look like the Motor Bikers on foot. But than I am not sure how to make them distinct from normal Marine, if they have the same Secondary. Maybe different weapon but still with grenade lau ncher? And better armor agaisnt splash damage of tanks?

National List

VolteMetalic 14:15, February 21, 2012 (UTC): Please, stop. There is already 16 nations to talk about, and thats really too much, especially when I count it with oher things. Why we cant discuss only 2-4 nations, and once finsihed we will move on to next one?

Russia

Hazza-the-Fox 14:25, February 4, 2012 (UTC) Awesome- in that case, let's start with Russia first.

So it has the Mastermind normally- an extremely hardy but slow unit, and normally rather short-medium-ranged (until it gets Cerebral Stabilizers, and becomes fairly long-ranged). It is an area-effect vehicle that simply turns the area around it into a no-go zone- BUT controlling too many targets hurts itself- while its secondary ability simultaneously cuts control of the units (saving the Mastermind) and incapacitates them- leaving them vulnerable (but also the Mastermind immobile and unable to attack).

SO- with that in mind;

1. The Mastermind's extreme slowness but good survivability means that the unit itself will not really need any battlefield assistance- and therefore, whatever the player needs will be in the place the mastermind is currently NOT (if its leaving the base, the player could probably do some kind of mischief before it arrives or prepares for its arrival- and once it leaves, it is no longer able to defend the base because its so slow.
2. If we wanted to add another Psi-themed unit or attack in, Russia would probably be the best candidate. Two possible contenders would be the hit-and-run Psi craft, or that miniature Dominator/Chaos weapon/Psi-Tower hybrid. Both would fill problem 1 fairly well- though both would need a fair bit of nerfing- and I think the 'mini Dominator' structure might be easier to do this with.
   1. The 'Dominator' could be one of two things
      1. A third, stand-alone superweapon that turns enemy units (or friendlies) berserk, or alternatively, mind-controlled for about 10-20 seconds, and is also able to defend itself directly by using an in-built Psi Tower (one space only, but far longer range). Thus, the result is it can defend slightly when the Mastermind is away- or cause some havoc while the Mastermind is slowly rolling towards the enemy. In this setup as a third superweapon, it would need to be seriously nerfed, which is easy- area-effect radius, a shorter effect duration, longer recharge time could all be worked in.
      2. A replacement for the Iron Curtain device. All the abilities mentioned above are simply added into the 'normal' effects of the Iron Curtain, whenever an enemy is targeted. So your own units are invulnerable (or get a massive armor/attack boost)- but enemy units are mind-controlled or made berserk. THIS method has a lot of excellent perks- one major one being that the player still only has TWO superweapon attacks (Dominator and Nuke) rather than three (Dominator, Iron Curtain and Nuke)- meaning that the player cannot shield his units while simultaneously controlling a separate group of enemies, and is forced to choose one or the other (or of course, try to put his units really close to the victims to pull off both)- and thus, warrants no nerfing at all.
   2. The Psi Plane is a bit harder. As a rule of thumb, the plane is either strong enough to fly in, control a target and fly away- making it extremely powerful (and possibly TOO powerful stacked with the Mastermind)- or it isn't, meaning it won't be able to get the job done at all.
3. I think with this in mind, the Hybrid-Dominator as an Iron Curtain replacement may well be the best choice- as although it's extremely powerful- it would overall mean Russia gets Mastermind + more versatile augmented Iron Curtain (with 1 free Psi Tower). Obviously, limited to one at a time, just like the Iron Curtain (with players tempted to put it on the front lines and into harms' way to get extra distance out of that Psi Tower)

Thoughts?

THinking about it, I actually think this (Iron Curtain/Chaos/Dominator hybrid) is by far the best approach- and I had actually thought of a really awesome design for the two structures (regular Iron Curtain and Russian replacement).

So, rather than building the Iron Curtain, Russia builds the 'Dominator', which

• Gives a massvie boost to your vehicles (possibly even plain old invincibility just like the Iron Curtain does)
• Gives a lesser version of this boost to infantry at Tier 4
• Sends enemy units into a temporary state of chaos or mind control (perhaps Chaos at Tier 3, and Mind Control at Tier 4).

And on top of this, it has two long-ranged defensive Psi towers built into it (note that these are still fooled by Alarm Bypass training).

VolteMetalic 12:39, February 5, 2012 (UTC): The major problem with the Iron Curtain is, that it is a technology which dont sees a differencies, and not just for units, but also for technology. If Dominator will ahve to have the properties of Iron Curtain, it will be shielding everything. And one of many effects the Iron Curtian has is that it shields units agaisnt mind-control, so this will be totally negate the Dominator's function.

I was thinking, that Russians/Soviets had one kind of infantry which was "better" than conscripts. Grenadiers :D Maybe they can act as supplement for Mastermind, or support of him, like his guardians.

Hazza-the-Fox 13:24, February 5, 2012 (UTC) I figured in this universe the Iron Curtain is a partly Psi-fueled attack, whose immunity to outside psionic attacks come from its own Psionic interference (psychics cannot control other psychics or units controlled by psychics). Also may need psionic minds too set coordinations- same way Chrono needs cyborgs.

Otherwise, In that case, perhaps the Dominator is a purely Psionic superweapon that simply uses minor bits and pieces of Iron Curtain tech. And rather than raw IC energy particles, it converts them into Psionic particles with a new form of attack- Psionic Override (aka Crowd Control).

• Against enemies, the particles penetrate the mind and strip control to the coordinators of the Dominator- effectively controlling them (or rendering them beserk if their minds are too strong).
• For friendly units who willingly accomodate the particles- all energy goes directly into psionic stimulation, improving attack, relaod, speed and defense as they generate their own protective Psi fields?

The problem with a grenadier (or potentially any unit actually) is that the Mastermind doesn't really actually need help for where it currently is- but needs help where it currently isn't- and the Dominator does this quite nicely.

And don't forget- the Russian player will still have all the normal Soviet units to back the Mastermind up.

VolteMetalic 18:20, February 5, 2012 (UTC): Yeah, but somehow I think that practically giving them new SW, even as part of one, makes Russia too strong compared to others.

Hazza-the-Fox 23:00, February 5, 2012 (UTC) True, but there really isn't anything else that really warrants being added to Russia save for some special ability (which I think is probably the best option for most nations actually). And of course, the superweapon's cost could be bumped up to 4000 to accomodate the extra bonuses- or its friendly or enemy bonus can always be scaled down to balance (or its area of effect). Superweapons are very easy to balance while remaining critically important.

And don't forget- mixing the two weapons together simply means that only one of the two attacks will ever actually occur at a time- it would be the same if we stated that on the first time, you can ONLY use it as a mind-control/chaos device, but the second time, you can ONLY use the Iron Curtain. Because using it on enemies effectively denies you an invulnerability for another 5 minutes- and using invulnerabiltiy instead leaves the player using a normal Iron Curtain device in practice. The only possible way to get both is to try to charge your forces right up to the enemy's face and hit the special ability- in which case the player definitely deserves both. That of course would also be risky if the Dominator unleashed a chaos attack rather than mind-control. In the end, it only serves as an Iron Curtain with some versatile alternative options to invulnerability.

VolteMetalic 13:55, February 6, 2012 (UTC): Hmm... i think that the problem here is, that you want the Nationals to be too unique, so they dont fill, even little, the role of another National. Like because there is Chinese Cricket which is an artillery unit, you wont think about making any other artillery unit. For example you can make a magnetic weapon, which will be in practice a railgun, which hurls projectiles/objects in incredible speeds by using the powerful magnetic fields. And railguns are very nasty artillery weapons. But I wont give this definitely not to the nation which has Magnetron,a s that one is also "artillery unit", but for someone who needs artillery.

Or for China to give them some spamable light tank, which can suppor Mauler and keep enemy occupied so Crickets can take them down. Like I said, look on ZH md Shockwave. There practically every sub-faction, every General has his own MBT unit. Laser Gen. has Laser Crusader (better AT), SW Gen. has Robot Tank (amphibious), AF Gen. has Sheridan Tank (ligher and faster) and Armor Gen. has Wraith Tank (more armored), and normal USA has Crusader Tank (balance). They are all unique, but all practically does the same role.

Or for Mastermind, actually make a unit which will require Mastermind's presence, because it has even shorter range, being a melee vehicle, something like Grinder Tank in RA3 Uprising.

Hazza-the-Fox 23:48, February 6, 2012 (UTC)That is partly true- I also want to get the maximum mileage out of the 'regular' units I currently have, with the Nationals only filling in some more distinctive purpose that none of the others can really fill- whilst still being dependent on the other units, with some distinct disadvantages remaining that give some fair vulnerabilities that the player must work around (for example, the German Nashorn is predominantly good against tanks and rather ineffective against infantry- but I wouldn't necessarily want an explicit anti-infantry combat unit to join the group because it makes the issue of handling the infantry attackers with no extra advantage a little too easy to solve- and instead would rather the German player try to work with what anti-infantry capabilities he already has). On the note of the uniqueness, it's important that if one side's star unit has a certain ability, that it would do well to not have it repeated on another side too effectively (or else people might skip that side completely in favor of the side with the clone of it, and the extra units to boot. I also want each unit to really fill a distinctive function in its own right- and for most units to get as much usage squeezed out as possible, with specialized substitutes inserted only when the side desperately needs it (or alternatively, if the side is too strong, as a more-specialist-less-versatile (or more versatile less-potent) replacement to balance.

HAVING said that, you make a good point about sides not necessarily needing to have different units (eg China only needing one siege unit)- which is something to weigh in.

Russia will be a problem- as instead of a unit with drawbacks, they get a unit that is simply insane-tough and with very few weaknesses.

In the case of the Mastermind, he only really has three major disadvantages in the field;

1. Every control victim after number 3 or 4 will start eating away at his health- making his life-span and the extent of its damage potentially quite short in time; Of couse, he can force-release with a dampening field- but shut himself and his comrades down along with the enemeis around him until he lifts it- in which case he would quickly control the same units eating his health, and die.
2. It has no capacity to harm defensive structures, nor probably garrisoned buildings, and of course, robots and cyborgs (Chrono Legionairre)
3. It is extremely slow and without the upgrade, rather short-ranged, allowing amassed enemies initially to hit-and-run from arm's length and gradually wear it down. And after the upgrade, probably would need to be attacked by either aircraft, or the few ultra-heavy vehicles (who unless are numerous enough to kill it in one combined salvo- will simply damage it and get controlled immediately after as they are too slow to escape).

And with these in mind, these disadvantages are perfectly fine as he mustn't be overpowering.

BUT, with the existing units it can significantly reduce these disadvantages. Engineers and Pioneers could slightly slow the overload damage a tiny bit. And against problems 2 and 3, The Devestator, Mauler, Terror Drones, Tesla Trooper and Flak Units, among others, will still be able to cover for the Mastermind to some extent (though definitely not flawlessly, and they will be at a huge disadvantage against the defending team). But with these alone, the Mastermind is already extremely hard for the enemy to counter too- so any further advantages that directly feed the Mastermind in a fight would be taking it even further.

Thus, a Dominator replacing the Iron Curtain would only offer its unique boosts when targeting enemies (and thus denying the Mastermind invincibility). Potentially, its contribution to the Mastermind (for craftier players) is to actually control the defending units moments before the Mastermind reaches them- buying it some time before it has to control them directly itself. And there are other things to consider;

1. If the Mastermind is too strong, the Dominator could actually get a weaker version of 'invincibility' so the Mastermind can never be made truly indestructible.
2. The Dominator, rather than directly control (at least initially before T4) instead makes units berserk (with a drastic damage bonus). Which could be used, with risk, against friendly and enemies alike, perhaps.
3. Combining 2 and 3- All units affected are made berserk- but friendly units remain controllable, and gain an armor bonus as well as damage bonus.
4. Interestingly, these effects would only benefit the Mastermind's armor (it has no real attack)- but using it on enemies in turn could buy the Mastermind a few moments before needing to control them itself- or if berserk units CAN be mind controlled, would mean that its control-victims would have heightened damage to get the most out of its victims against the damage it takes from controlling too many of them.

VolteMetalic 12:02, February 7, 2012 (UTC): Hmm... I see the problem... if Mastermind is too strong to be somehow more supported, lets aim on completely different angle, something where Mastermind can never reach, and that may be air. Like possibly a special Russian gunship, but I dont know how to make it stronger, but yet not replace Hind. Something like Hokum/Blackshark, mixed with Mi-28 Havoc. Thought Hind can serve as cheaper gunship, but also as aerial transport, and the Russian-only gunship cna be strictly combatant. Or even a naval unit.

Hazza-the-Fox 12:30, February 7, 2012 (UTC) Don't forget that the Mastermind's weakness to air is also a good thing- and by leaving deliberate gaps in Russia's ability to protect this unit gives other players a chance to take it down (by aircraft, artillery, and such). So a gunship may actually end up covering its major achilles heel. Though that is something to consider for one of the other nations.

Naval unit is one good option- though I was thinking that better candidates for that would be Korea or Cuba (both have a massively naval-centric presence on the map) or even China (for strictly gameplay reasons being that they possess one of the most versatile air units and mobile siege units in the Soviet arsenal, I'd figure they'd have the least to complain about if their second was a unit that was limited to water only.

I'm still warming to the Dominator being a berserk-only superweapon- as it compliments Russia with versatility that the Mastermind lacks- BUT while simultaneously secretly nerfing the side and making the Mastermind more vulnerable. As I'm looking at how this unit will be death-balled (clumped with tough units and marched to the enemy)- and in that form, could prove to be very hard to break, even with the few unit types it personally can't harm itself. So what it needs is something that does not cover for the Mastermind's own weaknesses (save as a well-timed superweapon strike as that is what they are for)- but may cover for any critical weaknesses for Russia as a whole. As it is, with the Mastermind not on the scene, Russia may well be the most vulnerable and least mobile of the Soviet factions. Plus, it keeps Russian players on their toes knowing that keeping the MM alive rests entirely on how they micro with a less-indestructible superweapon boost.

VolteMetalic 19:59, February 7, 2012 (UTC): Unless he cant attack air at all. :) Strictly ground-only unit.

Personally totally changing a SW of one faction, and especially Iron Curtain, makes the faction the weakest, because when I think about it, you are little overestimating Mastermind. Yes, it is pain in the ass, but it isnt unstopable, and in YR it was fairly easy to take them down. And here it is quite easier with Allied artilleries, like Prism Tank.

Hazza-the-Fox 00:53, February 8, 2012 (UTC) Good point. Though helping the Mastermind attack ground is also quite powerful :P

Fair enough- though on the other hand, berserk-power units with a massive armor boost could prove just as potent as invincible ones without an attack boost (the old Quad Damage vs Invulnerability factor in Deathmatch). And again, each time a player decides to control/chaos a bunch of enemies with a hybrid device means the Iron Curtain part ceases to exist during that turn as the abiltiy was spent on hurting the enemy instead of helping your units. So it isn't actually more powerful- but opens alt attacks when invincibility isn't the best option.

For the Allies' ranged attackers, their list is mainly air units, the Mars, and using the Sonic Tank and Guardian just outside safe attack range (and of course the psi-immune FlameBot). Soviets (including Russia) get the Terror Drone, Pariah, Devestator and aircraft. So you're probably right.

VolteMetalic 08:29, February 8, 2012 (UTC): Partially yes :) But still Allies can use the breach in the air to destroy both gunship and MM :)

Thats a big difference. Iron Curtain is still more potent. Yes, with a great attack buff the unit is very dangerous, but Invincibility makes the unit untouchable by practically anything. A buffed units can be still took down by Chrono-Legionnaires, artilleries, bombers and SW. IC-ed unit is untouchable by this all. It can be Chrono-erased, bombarded or smashed by SW. Thre only way how to deal with them is to teleport them away :) When I count it, Iron Curtain has clear advantage.

Yes. It isnt that strong that it can take down a whole attack force with just few defenders. Simply swarm it and destroy it :) Or bombard it with MRLS', or bombers :)

Hazza-the-Fox 12:06, February 8, 2012 (UTC) It would still mean ground is then harder pressed to stop it- which means amassing ultra-long-ranged units to enough quantities to take it out before it closes the gap :P

And actually even against those odds a damage/armor boost actually fares incredibly well. A damage boost alone can very easily match the protective power granted by invulnerabiltiy by virtue of having the potential to simply destroy enemies fast enough before they would be able to inflict much damage- which in turn increases the amount of kills and feeds their veteracies. More significantly, they would be inflicting far more damage to the force they are attacking- while IC'd units would only do the same normal damage. And while the invulnerable army would merely not be prevented from doing so- defending players would still have more opportunities to draw fire or escape the invincible units till the effect wears off. Add to that the armor bonus, and alternate ability to turn enemy units against themselves, we're talking quite a comparable defense.

VolteMetalic 16:48, February 8, 2012 (UTC): :) When two armies, of the same strength and numbers, meets. One has the whole army empowered by Dominator, and the other is fully protected by iron Curtain. My question is, who will win? :)

Hazza-the-Fox 01:45, February 9, 2012 (UTC) Interesting you asked :P. It actually does work out quite equal.

• In the open field and a direct fight to the death, the Iron Curtain will win easily (though would waste more time wearing down enemy shields).

• If Russia is being attacked, Dominated defending units will be at a huge disadvantage (but nowhere near as much as a non-IC/Dominated defending units)- whilst very importantly, the defenders will still potentially be drawing enemy fire away from your structuers (the Iron Curtain'd units will simply be ignored by enemy IC'd units, who will roll past and attack the structures- of course, players should be ignoring defenders anyway)- though in IC's case, the damage they inflict is no worse than normal- and that is if you didn't quickly Dominate the enemy before they arrived.
• If Russia is attacking the IC side, the Dominated attackers will actually be the deadlier threat than if they were IC'd. Essentially, they must simply ignore the IC defenders and focus on the siege (not so hard as their armor is boosted)- whilst doing huge damage. And that too is if you didn't decide to Dominate the defenders prior to arrival.

So in the three situations, the Dominated force fares slightly worse, equal and better. And I think this case is better than a unit- as Russia needs a few tactical insertions to mess with the scenes outside the MM's control- and the option to briefly boost the MM against the odds- but without stacking to its defense escort all the time as a unit would provide.

AND to top it off, if we still need to iron out any major flaws, there is the factor of potential benefits from T4. (eg Tanks get full invulnerabiltiy, enemy units go from berserk to mind-controlled).

VolteMetalic 12:43, February 9, 2012 (UTC): What shields?

No, IC will always win the fight. If Dominated units will ignore them, they will still be as vulnerable as any other unit, because by psychic energy you cant make much of a shield thing or something to increase resistivity. So in numbers, when 10 Devastators are Dominated, and 10 are ICed, the ICed will always win. Because, even the Dominated ones will be firing on them, they will dont scratch them, but ICed will be able to damage them. And when the IC effect wears off, they will be vulnerable, but they will start with full HP, unlike Dominated ones, and than the "normal ones" will be able to finish them off. It will probably mean some loses, but still IC has clear advantage. :)

But to counter this, make a ship, with a guns placed only for broadside fire, and maybe two small turrets on frotn and aft :) If Mastermind is that strong, when you will be able to use second National only on water.

Hazza-the-Fox 13:06, February 9, 2012 (UTC) Why not have the shield? an Iron Curtain device with Psi as a catalyst or medium (previous incompatibilities being partly solved)?

But in the circumstances, only an open battle to the death would decisevely favor the IC. But most circumstances are base attacks- where defending units aren't the main targets (and the superweapons aren't necessarily activated the same time). Dominated attackers would be the very worst thing an IC-defended base would expect because the player ignoring the IC defenders would do the most damage and last the second longest (attacking IC would last longer- but do far less damage)- while the defending dominateds still present themselves as a target to distact fire. And again, this is down to the player failing to dominate enemy units before they get a chance to IC them- potentially skipping the whole problem ;)

In other words, the only thing Dominators fear is the IC itself in the wrong circumstances- but due to versatiliy of being able to pre-emptively control enemy units rather than shield friendly units- may prove to actually be the IC's undoing as units sent to attack me (with intention to IC them immediately before engagement) may get Dominated on the way and sent back to attack him instead- forcing him to waste his own IC to defensively kill his own units.

A ship could be a good counterpart though- and it definitely will have less chance to overlap the Mastermind's business- but that raises the question of whether China, Korea or Cuba will be using (and arguably, China has the most use of a ship)- and I don't think we need more than one national ship per Allies/Soveits- as it starts to presume to heavily on the nation's strength relying on there being water on the map (for China it's not a problem as its Cricket unit is extremely powerful everywhere BUT water).

VolteMetalic 21:23, February 16, 2012 (UTC): And Mastermind isnt powerful everywhere BUT water? :) You said it yourself many times. There is still a Tesla ship in play, as it would make the most sense, if Tesla weapons are "targeted". Not exactly like a RA3 Stingray, but something with Teslas :) Maybe the "Shock Armor", that they are able to shield a small fleet agaisnt all enemy missiles (and possibly gun shells).

Hazza-the-Fox 10:09, February 17, 2012 (UTC) I don't really like Teslas being a water unit- even the Stingray kinda bugged me to be honest.

Besides, the Mastermind is slow, meaning that its absense is everywhere but the small spot of land its on, and a water unit will still mean that your national bonus is absent from every section of land except wherever the Mastermind currently is.

That aside, a fleeting non-damage strike is all-round most beneficial- as it's less directly potent than a national bomber/strike aircraft, and the CC means Russia does in fact need to strategically work around the Mastermind's low mobility most of the time, and to cover it only with the conventional soviet units it currently has- but gets a convenient periodic 'reprieve' with a "Controlled Chaos" strike anywhere its needed.

VolteMetalic 16:14, February 17, 2012 (UTC): Than choose what you want. You are saying that adding any unit beside Mastermind is redundant, and anything else is redundant too. So you choose to replace a useful SW with less useful.

Hazza-the-Fox 23:35, February 17, 2012 (UTC) We can always make the tanks fully-invincible from T3 to begin with if you want. Besides, overall it's actually more useful- as it can alternatively sabotage the enemy instead of enhance your own forces (and of course, when the enemy has amassed a huge attack force with the IC ready, you can 'Chaos Strike' them first- thinning down their numbers or forcing him to IC just to minimize his losses).

I think it is for the best for what the Mastermind does- and I reckon it works out if other nations get 2 new units and a third possible unit, while Russia gets 1 new unit, a replacement mega unit that also comes with its own mega-defense unit built in.

I reckon in that case this combination would be best for Russia...

VolteMetalic 10:52, February 19, 2012 (UTC): I think that replacing any SW take out the interesting thign from the faction. Why not simply give it a ship? It is somethign what Mastermind cant do,a nd Russia is mostly surrounded by water, and be support ship armed with magnetic harpoon to lure, or immobilize enemy ship. That is something what wasnt filled in yet, as Allies has faster ships.

Hazza-the-Fox 14:24, February 19, 2012 (UTC) Would you mean that having the space taken by a superweapon misses the chance to add a unit instead?

Having said that, the ship idea could work too (perhaps is very fast itself- approaches an enemy ship and shuts it down- or uses Psi to start mutinies that incapacitate the ship and reduce its health).

I still think the Chaos Core (aka PsiCore) should stay even if a unit is added- it does compliment Russia's attacks best of all)

VolteMetalic 11:35, February 20, 2012 (UTC): No, but I mean that replacing any SW with another, though may look great, means it rips off a part of Soviet as a whole. Iron Curtaina and "super heavy" tank (Mammoth, Apocalypse, Devastator) and subs belongs to them like Chronosphere and Destroyer to Allies.

For the ship, it will either stop it where it is my combiantion of magnetic and EMP field, or it will pull the ship by magnetic field so it can be destroyed by other ships, like Sea Reaper.

Hazza-the-Fox 23:43, February 20, 2012 (UTC) In that case, what about as a third defense, or replacement for the Psi Sensor? (instead of shielding, it passively fulfills the Psi-Sensor's old functions).

Hmmm- a magnetic boat is starting to sound more like something Korea would do- so hold that thought for Korea ;)

What about a kamikaze pariah on a motor-raft?

VolteMetalic 14:15, February 21, 2012 (UTC): Hmm... taht may work, but it wont be that potent like SW, but can do the simialr things. And T4 bonuses dont coutns to it I think.

Do you think Pariah can be smart enought to control a raft? :D

Hazza-the-Fox 04:08, February 22, 2012 (UTC) I figured- if it were at T4 level (replacing the Psi Sensor), and was limited to ONLY its T3 level of operations minus shielding, it could work. That being, it simply renders enemies berserk, and gives your units a rage boost.

Hmmm- Pariahs smart enough to work a boat? probably not- though if its a very simple motor-raft, and the Pariah's CPUs had some extra programming, possibly???

VolteMetalic 11:49, February 22, 2012 (UTC): Yeah, probably that could work :)

Well, they may be able to drive them, but how successfully? :D

Hazza-the-Fox 11:58, February 22, 2012 (UTC) Cool-

Unsuccessfully driving of course- but that's the whole point with using Pariahs :P

VolteMetalic 09:09, February 23, 2012 (UTC): No, I meant that they will not be able to drive it propelly, so it could end up they will be driving in circles or like they are drunk :D

Hazza-the-Fox 12:11, February 23, 2012 (UTC) That.... might not actually be a bad thing you know- would look pretty funny, and would give these units an air of unpredictability! :P

Japan

Discussion

Hazza-the-Fox 13:14, February 9, 2012 (UTC) So it seems to be Prism Tank and Swordsman (perhaps with some kind of periodic ranged attack to throw in before charging- possibly a long-range grenade launcher). Thoughts? VolteMetalic 10:49, February 12, 2012 (UTC): So a Samurai armed with some grenade? That could work :) Hazza-the-Fox 13:18, February 12, 2012 (UTC) Awesome! I'm thinking of how to portray this guy- not quite a medieval-type character, but more alike Japanese WW2 officers (and probably many regular soldiers), who actually DID arm themselves with swords (factory made) as well as their guns- but still with some few samurai touches of course ;) I've got two good ideas; The first is he is some kind of VERY heavily-armored officer, with some mild command aura- not necesarily as good as the Commissar by a long shot- but good enough that players are torn between sending him to break the enemy's lines- or keep him back to boost his comrades' attack if things are too choppy. He might have some problems against FlameBots, Terror Drones, Tesla Troopers and Pariahs though. Secondary ability eludes me- which is tricky, as considering that he is partnered with potentially the best long-ranged support vehicle in the game, aught not contribute too much to any ranged assault so much. What he does while garrisoned is a question also. The second and more extreme- but I personally think much better overall- we replace the standard Marine with a new Japanese basic infantry unit- heavily armored, faster-moving, and slightly more expensive- armed with an assault rifle and a sword- which he can switch between. This solves a lot of problems- he needs no particular immunities against FlameBots, Dogs, Terror Drones, Tesla Troopers and Pariahs- their attacks are just as lethal (though dogs naturally are unlikely to get close when in sword mode)- but his cheaper cost makes this less of a problem, and his ability to switch to rifle mode allows him to take these targets like the regular infantry would- and switch to swords and charge at a good opportunity. Naturally, they lose the Marine's one-shot grenade launcher (small loss with the Prism Tank watching your back)- but keep the ability to storm garrisoned structures (inside they use their rifles). VolteMetalic 12:12, February 13, 2012 (UTC): I think that something like RA3 Imperial Warrior (which is exactly how you described it in second idea, a perfect dublicate), only in the Allied style, like a modern Samurai :) Armed with a katana (thought I think they may have them somehow Prism-enhanced. Possibly, they can be armed with a grenade they will throw... simply put, when you order Samurai to attack enemy infantry, he will first throw a grenade and than charges with prepared katana. As Secondary, it may be a sprint, so they can quickly dash among enemy infantry and kill them. And with their moderna armours they can resist quite few bullets. Hazza-the-Fox 00:31, February 14, 2012 (UTC) I think having a unit that doesn't itself possess any Prism functions suggests the nation is more versatile than a single area of technology (technically two if you add the SkySec). Plus, I think rationalizing the metal swords being sharpened by a Prism Beam in the factories adds an interesting twist (plus, applying existing technolohy to help make a piece of cheap metal sharper while cutting costs explains a clear limitation of the technology applied- if that makes sense. That Prisms so far have only been shrunk down to an extremely large bulky mobile object or a heavy appliance using baseload power to retain what intensity they currenty deliver, and the country are working within the limitations as far as they can get). I'm still warming to the "Imperial/Samurai Marine" option- as it implies that the design had actually evolved from their WW2 infantry design (which in this reality- won the war and thus as a successful model, continued to be refined into the modern age, and only encouraged by developments in body-armor- gradually becoming 'samurai-ish' by itself). Also, it rationalizes a clear design that other Allied Nations would say no to- not trusting their chances with a blade than a grenade-launcher or silenced rifle). Gameplay-wise, it proves the simplest solution of how to balance this unit against heavier anti-infantry attacks (dogs, Flamethrowers and Tesla Tanks). An expensive heavy-unit might be too powerful if resistant to these things, but instantly unusable if not. A samurai-marine on the other hand is cheap enough so that being weak against these things isn't a problem- and if the enemy is using them in bulk- then they will simply act like marines and shoot until they see an opportunity to charge. Of course, we could always have some kind of 'samurai commander' as the stand-alone too ;) And I was thinking, perhaps the Japanese could get slightly augmented barracks (Dojo Barracks with some mild boost). VolteMetalic 10:50, February 14, 2012 (UTC): Why you msut always make things harder and harder :) Why not keep normal Marine and Barracks as they are? The samurai, they "ceased to exist" long before WW1. So these may be just those who call themselves samurai, and wears an armour which is between Marines and Centurions. It is samurai-like, but has the design similar to Centurions to look like "modern samurai". And FlameBot, it may be good anti-infantry, but is weak against AT infantry and vehicles, Samurai is damaged by infantry, yes, but he can be able to kill 2 Conscripts out of 5 before diing, or 3 or 4. FlameBot will probably be better, but if there will be Flak Trooper, he amy be taken down as he is light. And the swords which are sharpened by Prism beams in factory is good idea. Hazza-the-Fox 14:16, February 14, 2012 (UTC) Technically it's actually the easier option :P, as there is horde bonus, expendability of being the basic infantry unit offsetting its limitations, and the units can fight perfectly well with firearms when using swords is not an option. That aside, replacing a unit with a somewhat different one raises the implications of a greatly different 'faction' that happened to join the broader alliance- if that makes sense (think, Empire of the Rising Sun was up until very recently its own faction, like in RA3- and only recently started pooling resources, with some substantial differences clearly showing). That aside, situations when sword-fighting is not an option will probably be the defining 'secondary'- and good point about functionally comparing to the flamebot- that also reinforces the need that the unit either be a horder, or a fast armored attacker (or somewhere in between). For armor- we simply take a modern-ish kevlar/polymer body armor, add shoulder and thigh plates, and augment the helmet to have a longer 'back/neck guard' part (old German and Samurai helmets) with a reinforced forhead protector- looks like a Samurai while concievably being just a coincidence. VolteMetalic 11:18, February 15, 2012 (UTC): No it isnt, it requires more work. :) Instead of one building and one infantry, you want two and two, respectively :) I understand it, but there is already a lot of work. I am still more for a Samurai-like infantry. THe armor would be kevlar/polymer and partially metallic, and witht he helmet, but also with the segmented shoulder pads and "skirt", and a gas mask/armor mask, something like this link. For the weaponry, the katana is still in play, and possibly a grenade to little confuse enemy before attacking with katana, but as Secondary maybe to give it some kind of ranged weapon, like a rifle or something. And to give them the "banner" on the back, which samurais were carrying into battle. Hazza-the-Fox 11:40, February 15, 2012 (UTC) Now I'm starting to think we should do BOTH :P For the Samurai unit- exactly as you described it- he should also have a command aura- thus is always a boost if the Tesla Troopers are out in numbers- and also a tough decision when a good melee opening appears. Now- this is where it gets interesting- what if, along with this unit, the Marines were still augmented (no grenades, switch to Katanas)- thus, the rifle-problem is solved, and the lighter cheaper swordsmen get a heavy melee unit leading the charge! As for the Dojo- I had actually already thought of the concept- basically, the Allied Barracks only with flanges on the sides of the roof- and a little shrine/sculpture between the steps of the huts. THAT would make about 2 National units, and 2 augmented existing units. Carrying the mention of possible Nation-only upgrades and boosts, and the fact that France technically has 1 structure, 1 new/replacement units and 1 free minor superpower (paradrop), it might not be as extreme as it looks (for if France gained an upgrade, it would be 4 special features too). VolteMetalic 21:42, February 16, 2012 (UTC): That, could be acceptable, the Marine with katanas instead of grenades, and would keep them the anti-garrison attack :) Hazza-the-Fox 10:13, February 17, 2012 (UTC) Awesome! Agreed. So, something like: Prism Tank (provides light long-ranged area support) "Samurai Officer" (or other pseudo-lordly/nobility name) combat-infantry-officer (heavy armor, sword, command aura, possibly a single-shot grenade or gun or smoke-screen- leads infantry charges, or otherwise boosts morale and throws one of the projectiles whenever possible) Imperial Marines (rifles, katanas, anti-garrison, faster and better armored than normal marines, with no Grenade Launchers) That is 2 new units, and a replacement for a 'normal' unit. ;) VolteMetalic 16:34, February 17, 2012 (UTC): Pretty much, yes :) Hazza-the-Fox 23:27, February 17, 2012 (UTC) Excellent- I'd say we're done! (by the way- check the Turkey page- as it looks like both Japan and Turkey are the first finished nations! VolteMetalic 10:53, February 19, 2012 (UTC): I agree :)

Libya

Discussion

Hazza-the-Fox 13:14, February 9, 2012 (UTC) I was thinking about this one and there are a few things to consider; The nuke truck is a quick strike unit- so the logical compliment is some kind of fast response/raiding unit to leap into the gaps opened up by the nukes, and generally making things even worse than they already are; Probably unnecessary and very overpowered- but some 'stealth' version of the Iron Curtain (makes targets invisible to all except dogs during the time- though this in turn could prove too easy to counter I think 1 is the better option- question is, what should it be? Having range is good (so it can double as some kind of interceptor/scout vehicle)- probably offers light harassment against enemy units, but some kind of extra obnoxious effect on bases (being that this is the main opportunity to use them)- although on the other hand- having specifically anti-structure units is a bit redundant against the suicide nuke truck. VolteMetalic 10:54, February 12, 2012 (UTC): Yes, 1st option is better, as practically any IC-based unit is OP :P So, a harrassment unit... what about a multi-weaponed armored jeep? With several machine guns, and maybe one light gun or missile laucnher? Hazza-the-Fox 12:27, February 12, 2012 (UTC) YES- perfect; excellent for breaking into a base and attacking multiple targets! It would also allow the unit's weapons to inflict light damage (if necessary), but dish it out very broadly- thus the overall damage is extensive! Adding to that is that this unit may easily be finishing off survivors caught in the blast radius, it would only need light damage to take out a horde of pre-damaged units very fast)! So- a converted jeep/buggy (wierd customized ATV) or technical- probably similar or slightly larger dimensions than a Flak Raider- outfitted with several guns of some sort, and I agree, probably some periodic-firing heavier gun to even out against some tougher targets. (on the note of ICs- keep in mind that an IC replacement as the second unit means that while one side gets two bonus units plus a normal IC: the other only gets one unit with a better IC- so it actually proves quite equal as technically, the second side is ultimately not getting an extra unit at all- simply one new unit, and a replacement for an existing unit. This in turn would be handy for other nations where a useful unit for the side could replace something else if the side may prove too strong) VolteMetalic 12:17, February 13, 2012 (UTC): Yeah, something like a Soviet-like counterpart to Humvee, armed with a machine gun for driver (fires only ahead), machine gun for the guy beside driver (ahead and to right side), a light gun/autocannon on the back (360°), and possibly two more machine guns which will be able to fire to the sides and back. Or take down driver's machine gun, so it will ahve 3 machine guns, positioned like Sickle had. And if all three cna fire ahead or only two on one target ahead (like Sickle), thats up to you :) Hazza-the-Fox 23:49, February 13, 2012 (UTC) I think Sickle's layour would work nicely on jeep form (or some jeep-turned-massive-desert-buggy/truck)- I reckon- the lightgun/autocannon should be the front-passenger (only 90 degree, but can fire on the move if enemy is in front), the twin machinegun turrets sit before/after the rear wheels (360), leaving a fourth space for a fourth weapon (or the special ability object). It's giving me a good idea for a sketch! VolteMetalic 10:53, February 14, 2012 (UTC): That can work, but where exactly is this forth weapon? And Secondary may be to increase the speed but cant fire in the duration. Hazza-the-Fox 14:03, February 14, 2012 (UTC) Oh- the fourth weapon would be on top center- either before or behind the side guns. But of course, it doesn't have to be a weapon- it can be whatever device the second ability ultimately is- and some kind of engine-extension/booster for a speed boost is also a good idea. Ultimately, what WOULD a vehicle like this need to do as its secondary? It would need to be fairly fast already to do what it does (catch up with nuke truck and slip into the chaos immediately after detonation), obviously be radiation proof (either insulated, or simply piloted by guys in radiation suits)- among other considerations (worthwhile to bring into a base to add to the damage, probably also good for patrols and open combat). VolteMetalic 11:33, February 15, 2012 (UTC): Hmm... when I think about it, the gun on front may look... little weird, as guns are pretty large. And I would make both the radiation-proof jeep and radiation suits. For Secondary, I dont know. Hazza-the-Fox 12:18, February 15, 2012 (UTC) MAybe, maybe not for the gun- as I can think of a few ways to make it look normal. Of course, it can be rear-mounted (facing front) if the 'special weapon' were instead located on the front of the vehicle). Rad-proofing both sound good. I think we're really going to have to come up with this secondary. Perhaps- one simple idea is a 'concussion' launcher- a series of grenade launchers pointing in all directions fire at once, lobbing light grenades in every direction and doing damage to whatever they land near (including your own units- though a couple of these things bunched tightly together probably won't hit each other)- the benefits of this is that it has a clear anti-base/survivor function after the nuke goes off- and is good for making an escape if cornered, WHILE also being anti-deathball as your own units can't be nearby when it goes off. The downside is that it may prove potential overkill to the enemy who just go a nuke on their front door :/ And not sure how this third point matters- but it would mean both of these units are potential area-effect friendly-fire hazards. VolteMetalic 21:45, February 16, 2012 (UTC): The grenade laucnhers sounds too much already :D Maybe that they can drive very fast for some time, but cnat fire, but to quickly dash into the hole, or get out :) Hazza-the-Fox 10:24, February 17, 2012 (UTC) Hmmm- that raises an interesting point there- we can consider on that point what kind of unit we want to have (aside from being good at attacking a group at a time, and useful for sending into a base)- so that aside, do we want: A rather heavy, powerful unit with some fairly powerful cannons, that is normally of moderate speed, but can initiate a temporary boost of speed to 'charge in' (possibly smashing walls over and knocking enemy vehicles out of its way)? A very light, speedy vehicle that contains a single-use powerful attack? I think, on the note of 1 only being able to smash walls/push aside enemies, it actually brings with it a nice boost for the Nuke Truck; that you would need one of these 'rams' to charge in and clear a path, followed by a nuke (Sacrificing both units probably), followed by a third 'ram' to quickly slip in and mop up survivors. And with that in mind, the Nuke Truck itself can be stripped of the ability to smash walls/etc itself- making it a more co-dependent (and balanced) unit. VolteMetalic 16:40, February 17, 2012 (UTC): Hmm... I want more of second with first's secondary :) Hazza-the-Fox 23:25, February 17, 2012 (UTC) Problem is it might be kinda redundant if the unit was already fast to begin with ;) Especially if it can't attack- though the mechanic does have a good micro side to it. VolteMetalic 10:54, February 19, 2012 (UTC): It may have not to be that fast. After all, it is laoded with many weapons and ammunition :) Hazza-the-Fox 13:58, February 19, 2012 (UTC) Good point :) Ok- so we're dealing with a normally-not-so-fast unit, with light/medium armor, whose special ability is to switch into 'ram mode'- moving fast, unable to shoot, but able to smash down walls and push aside enemy vehicles (except heavy vehicles). Now that I think of it- its light armor is probably a fair handicap ;) (in that case, I think the design should include some kind of dynamic engine that blurts smoke and fire during boost-mode- or possibly even a rocket thruster). So- back to the unit itself; It can clear a path for a nuke truck, and it can alternatively, jump into a post-nuclear fray to cause trouble with its regular weapons- including a few light machineguns, and probably a heavier gun(s) of some sort. Concept-wise, I'm toggling a few ideas; a large 'open' buggy with rad-suited gunners on various sides- a sealed up desert-armored-truck with scrappy-looking port-holes with guns poking out sideways etc- or even some kind of vehicle with the gun crew operating remote-controlled guns from a cockpit... lots of options. VolteMetalic 11:35, February 20, 2012 (UTC): Yeah, the smoking effect will be great, but ramming? It will need a sort of plow which can smash through thick brick wall, or concrete. And if it has light armor, ti will more smash by it rather the opposite :D The concept, I imagine it as a Humvee-like vehicle, with some armor plates on the doors, and now the weapons. The front-passenger's seat will have a small cupola with machine gun popping out, than on the back-to-middle section will have two another cupolas popping out from the sides with machine guns, and on the back a front-facing small gun, with loading being inside (like shell is put into the "elevator" which takes it into the gun). And with the large exhausts somewhere on the back. Hazza-the-Fox 23:36, February 20, 2012 (UTC) It could of course simply have light armor- BUT a heavy forward plow on a reinforced front (which might potentially shield its front-face a small bit) . Sounds good- I'll see what I can do! VolteMetalic 14:15, February 21, 2012 (UTC): Ok, good luck :) Hazza-the-Fox 04:08, February 22, 2012 (UTC) By the way- I reckon we should call these vehicles "Jackals" VolteMetalic 11:49, February 22, 2012 (UTC): Agree 100%! Hazza-the-Fox 11:58, February 22, 2012 (UTC) Awesome

Turkey

Discussion

Hazza-the-Fox 15:22, February 11, 2012 (UTC) Ok, a nice simple one to ponder. A quick recap; Turkey has the Battle Fortress- which after a bit of thought, I've decided that it should have a flamethrower as its standard nose-mounted gun (reinforces its role as a close-range assault vehicle). {C}And obviously, the perfect compliment to a troop carrier is a trooper! I briefly considered a flamethrower guy, but thought against it for a few reasons; There's not much a second flamethrower can do that the first one can't if they're sharing the same unit/structure (though that wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing- players would only assign one to the tank, and other units to fill the rest (though Guardians would be ridiculously obvious for the choice- reflecting the old 1 Seal + 4 Guardian combo in YR). He would be great IN the fortress, but useless outside- as the flamebot does his job already, but is really fast and also psi-immune. He'd prove rather redundant inside a Wildcat (it turns into a larger flamebot- only more expensive and not immune to mind-control). He'd be an excellent pillbox occupant for stopping engineer rushes- but opting instead to park an empty battle-fortress achieves the same result. Instead, I thought the better option would be a deployable light-mortar-guy; He offers excellent long-range support, while the Fortress offers mobilitiy. A mortar is so slow-loading and cumbersome for an infatnry unit, that it doesn't outshine anything at all. Best of all- its horrible against speedy units- making light vehicles a strong achilles heel against Turkey's tank-killing assault team. Inside the fortress, he makes it an excellent siege platform. Yet at the same time, it's hard to actually figure out the 'perfect' combination with a unit like this relative to other units to ride inside. But for using the fortress as a battering ram, he is actually better supporting it from outside leaving the space for occupants better-suited to close-range combat He fits nicely inside the Pillbox- and moreso the Wildcat (a mobile mortar armored car) Watching a Battle Fortress fire a volley of mortars would look awesome. Thoughts? VolteMetalic 11:18, February 12, 2012 (UTC): Yeah, Mortar guy is really fine idea, but few thigns to him. As he carries a mortar, he cant enter normal structures, or cant fire out from them with the mortar. Smae goes to transports which offers occupants to fire from it, including Battle Fortress. The only things which can change that is Pillbox (which with its current layout will look weird with the mortar on top) and Wildcat. If he can sit into a transport, he cant fire from it. I am thinking if he will be acting normally to attack, or needs to "deploy", but I think that simply he will come, lay mortar and fire, no need to first "deploy". And, if he would have a pistol for self-defence or not, but i think not. Hazza-the-Fox 12:17, February 12, 2012 (UTC) Agreed! Garrisons: Agreed on general structures and transports- he shouldn't be able to fire from within Pillbox- good point about it being strange- and come to think of it- he'd actually be more dangerous outside one than inside- as the Pillbox is 90 degree only, and he's 360 (and as there isn't really anything potentially distinguishing his mortar could be doing from inside the pillbox- nor is it a weapon for a direct firefight, the benefits of garrisoning him really aren't there). So perhaps simply, the Pillbox cannot take him. Battle Fortress- I think it may warrant an upgrade to allow it- as having a national soldier and national troop carrier duo that can't accomodate his gun feels a bit odd (especially as many real-life NATO APCs are built specifically to allow mortar teams to fire from inside). Deploy-or-not; Keep in mind, his closest counterpart is the Flak Trooper who can also fire his gun non-deploy, and also attack air- so it may prove an interesting dichotomy that the better mortar (Mortar Guy) were the less mobile (especially as comparably bulky arms or lighter guns in the Allied infantrty arsenal are also deployable). Plus, having to deploy (which can take a few moments) helps prevent this unit from being very mobile on his own (thus giving the Italian siege mech a stronger role as a hit-and-run siege unit). VolteMetalic 12:20, February 13, 2012 (UTC): Hehe, thats totally different with the mortar teams :) It is, because the vehicle has its own mortar in it, not that two/three guys can fire from one vehicle with mortars :D Agree with Pillbox. Ok, so Secondary of Mortar guy is Deploy/Undeploy :) Hazza-the-Fox 23:41, February 13, 2012 (UTC) It wouldn't be too different a mechanism- simply that the normal converted APCs are designed to open up the roof, and allow the mortar to clamp into a port on the floor- so it could be the revolutionary touch that it allows a multitude of these from infantry mortars. Agreed with Pillbox! I think deploy works best for this guy- and it creates a reverse dichotomy for Japan (slow support unit and speedy close-assault unit)- only instead its toned down slower- slow deployable support unit and slow close-assault unit) ;) VolteMetalic 10:58, February 14, 2012 (UTC): For some reason I havent seen in any game or mod that mortar infantry can fire from the vehicles, because it can be pretty OP. Imagine that you ahve 8 artillery units in one huge mobile fortress which can destroy anything nearby, and resist a lot of damage. Hazza-the-Fox 13:57, February 14, 2012 (UTC) That's quite true! Perhaps if the mortars had very slow fire-rates and somewhat slow projectile velocities, it might render them somewhat clumsier alternatives to what other units dish out? (on top of this, the units themselves aught to cost 600-700 each) VolteMetalic 11:35, February 15, 2012 (UTC): Mortar has too large potential, and being in vehicle and firing from it, may be too much :) Hazza-the-Fox 12:03, February 15, 2012 (UTC) Very expensive National upgrade? VolteMetalic 21:45, February 16, 2012 (UTC): if there wil be a slot for "National upgrade", yeah, that could work. Hazza-the-Fox 10:28, February 17, 2012 (UTC) Awesome, let's go with that! I think that would be the best idea for another reason too- it solves some balance issues with National units that aren't Sonic/Prism/Tesla/Psi-based ;) Plus, it won't upset too much balance- Japan for example, needs no upgrade as its infantry are probably fine, and its Prism Tank benefits from the T4 Prism Upgrade VolteMetalic 16:41, February 17, 2012 (UTC): We will see. :) Hazza-the-Fox 23:21, February 17, 2012 (UTC) Pretty much- I'd say Turkey's solved for now ;) Although on another note- I think we'd want to probably put up "Nations" sections in the Allied/Soviet unit pages, with sub-sections for each nation (eg Turkey) and underneath, subsections for each unit, structure or upgrade unique to that side- and do this every time we complete a nation- or else the "Infantry" and "Vehicle" sections may get very tight! ;) VolteMetalic 10:56, February 19, 2012 (UTC): :) Well, if we will move on to Revora, we will ahve a space to actually make the pages slower,a s there the "Spoiler" tag would work much better, so we could hide all the walls of texts :) Hazza-the-Fox 14:01, February 19, 2012 (UTC) As a matter of fact, I was thinking it's time to set up our Revora page- so I would agree entirely with that recomendation! VolteMetalic 11:35, February 20, 2012 (UTC): Ok, I will inform the guy about it. :) Hazza-the-Fox 23:32, February 20, 2012 (UTC) Sweet!

China

Hazza-the-Fox 01:08, February 14, 2012 (UTC) Ok, as I mentioned before, a ship may be the best option as China's Cricket is probably the most versatile and mobile unit in the game. Between its long-ranged gun and ability to fly, it can be anywhere and everywhere quite quickly- can even cross water. Meaning that it has little need for an assistant to fill in its absense- nor really help it in combat. The fact that it can walk around on the ground also means that AA is only a counter to it attempting to escape an incoming attack force trying to take it out (which I think is actually quite a fair handicap).

But because its gun is a ground-only device- leaves the open ocean as the only place it has little use in. Thus, because of this, and because of the factors listed above, China probably has the most to gain and least to lose by having some kind of ship.

Question is, what?

As it stands, the Soviets have a reasoably balanced naval force to head off the Allies (while the SeaReaper is weaker than the Allied Battleship, their Typhoon is stronger than the battleship or the Trident Sub). On this note, I think we'd want to revisit our list of existing ships to find out if all are going to be 'general (non-national) themselves, and if so- what left needs doing?

VolteMetalic 11:07, February 14, 2012 (UTC): Maybe a mass-producable ship, which isnt very armed maybe. Or maybe a torpedo boat? :)

Hazza-the-Fox 13:48, February 14, 2012 (UTC) Both sound like excellent ideas- I also would be leaning towards cheap speedy boats with a heavier but shorter-ranged attacks (shorter ranged being closer to what ground units and subs would do, rather than ships and artillery, that is)

Update, an idea came to mind (and it can just as easily be a single-player only idea).

China should also get a ship that is essentially a giant floating Airship Hangar (capable of manufacturing gunships, airships and Crickets- and probably has its own small fighter fleet)- so it can launch Cricket invasions from.

But again, this can be a single-player-only idea

VolteMetalic 11:44, February 15, 2012 (UTC): Yeah, a boat with torpedo tubes, and maybe with option of "kamikaze" strike? Or not, hmm...

Hazza-the-Fox 12:11, February 15, 2012 (UTC) Definitely torpedo boat- the more I think about it, the more appropriate it is- with the Cricket covering siege-fire all across the shore and coast, a boat that can only attack other naval units is definitely a welcome relief- while effectively guarding places the Cricket cannot.

Kamikaze could be a good idea too! OH! that gives me an excellent idea. I was thinking, how do we seperate this from the Typhoon? And it hit me when thinking about your post- what if, this boat actually sends out little remote-controlled demo-boats? THe bonus is that these boats are actually targetable- which means that the enemy navy is forced to divert their fire into stopping these mini-boats from colliding into them- and in doing so, away from your own naval forces (Which may in turn cover the Cricket's flight path crossing a blockade- though AA tend not be distracted as easily).

VolteMetalic 21:47, February 16, 2012 (UTC): If it can use both torpedoes and these remote bmb boats, it would be best :)

Hazza-the-Fox 09:44, February 17, 2012 (UTC) True- quick thing to consider- we'd need to consider how this boat compares to the Typhoon in terms of how its torpedos compare? Because the flipside is, if this national boat is constantly sends out targetable RC demo-craft to the enemy as its normal attack, it would seriously hurt the enemy's ability to fend off your actual fleet- while the Typhoon's torpedo attack is still dearly needed...

Perhaps- it could be reverse- instead of torpedo normally and unleash RC bomber as special- it RC Bombers normally, and unleashes a mega torpedo/spread of torpedos as a special (whichever special function the Typhoon does not do).

VolteMetalic 16:45, February 17, 2012 (UTC): That would look weird :) In Paradox, one side has a anti-ship subamarine and torpedo boat at once, and its fine.

Hazza-the-Fox 23:18, February 17, 2012 (UTC) It won't look strange- a large 'utility' hydrofoil with a huge amount of machinery sitting over the the part between the twin 'keels' that manufactures the RC boats, drops them in the water underneath which speed out front from between the two 'keels' to its target- it'd look awesome! Also, the 'boats' could actually be potentially submersible, so you could watch them 'dive' down to attack subs...

I reckon that's the best- as it delivers something that none of the other boats in the game can compare to- volatile naval decoys that chase the target ;)

And thus, because its projectiles can be shot down by the very units they are meant to be attacking, this unit NEEDS the other boats for support (but they benefit immensely from this boat drawing fire- but if the other ships draw fire instead, the results are catastrophic!

VolteMetalic 11:02, February 19, 2012 (UTC): And... where is the "easy-to-make" part in this? So it can be mass-produceable? It would look good, but for China it looks... too high-tech. Thought Cricket is quite a high-tech thing. But this is emant to be easy to make.

Hazza-the-Fox 14:09, February 19, 2012 (UTC) The RC bombs are by no means advanced- they are meant to be rather clumsy-looking and cheap things- a deliberately-inferior and simplistic counterpart to the Allied Drones to save money i fact (especially as they are so non-agile that enemy ships can shoot them out of the water). Thus, like Japanese swords in the eyes of Allied buyers, these strange machine-boats failed to impress foreign Soviet buyers, dismissing it as antiquated junk- who did not realize the great tactical advantage of mass-producable naval decoys ;)

The ship itself takes on the appearance of a rickety engineering hydrofoil barge...

Overall, technology and ease of manufacture depends on simply the make of the devices in question ;)

Unless that is, you think the ship should instead be a 'Prison ship' carrying Pariahs with inflatable rafts (which would also be quite interesting- and make some different implications).

VolteMetalic 11:35, February 20, 2012 (UTC): Hmm... why not repalce it? That it will be normally launching torpedoes, and as Secondary the decoy, which is more stronger? As seeing a torpedo as "secondary" looks to me... weird :D

Hazza-the-Fox 23:32, February 20, 2012 (UTC) I kinda like the standard decoys better- as we already have a perfectly good torpedo sub :P while by sending some kind of 'decoy bomber' as its general attack (automatic attack in fact) it serves a completely new role. And as the decoys are nothing but cheap makeshift RC devices- or Pariahs on inflatable rafts- it reflects a technological 'normality' and obvious money-saving device in the eyes of its deseigner.

VolteMetalic 14:15, February 21, 2012 (UTC): I said you it wont be probem to have two torpedo units :)

Ok... and whaat will be the Secondary than?

Hazza-the-Fox 04:35, February 22, 2012 (UTC) I'd rather not double up an attack with another existing unit when a new form of attack is possible.

Secondary attack- a larger, underwater version of the RC bomb that uses a torpedo cluster. Simply target an area (even out of sight) and the RC 'sub' will travel there from long ranges- the moment it nears its first enemy ship(s) from about medium-range, it will self-destruct and split up into a cluster of torpedos that will individually seek out multiple targets. The subs are visible due to the water they kick up and targetable by anti-sub weaponry- BUT, the torpedos cannot be targeted. The downside of this attack is it takes a long time to charge, and costs some money each time.

That way, it retains the 'decoy' factor for both attacks, only the second does more widespread damage and is harder to intercept.

VolteMetalic 11:49, February 22, 2012 (UTC): It will be up to players if they will choose to use sub or torpedo boat.

That would be hard to imagine. Torpedoes are pretty large, even these small ones, and imagining that you have several which points to several angles... the bomb will need to be pretty massive.

Hazza-the-Fox 12:05, February 22, 2012 (UTC) But players will still likely choose one and discard the other- which is kinda what I'd rather avoid with the national units and rather ensure that players are encouraged to use the rest. It's important that they fill roles normal units can't and thus enhancing their attack- while failing to fill roles the normal units can, thus needing their assistance.

As for the secondary torpedo- think of it more like a multi-stage rocket- the main torpedo expends its fuel to carry its payload for a long-distance attack, and launches the final-tier torpedos for the actual strike. A far-travelling suicide bomb that doesn't actually need to get so close to do its damage.

VolteMetalic 09:09, February 23, 2012 (UTC): But simply a torpedo which contains even small torpedoes, it dont looks that good. Possibly only that it can fire only to the sides, not fully 360°.

Hazza-the-Fox 12:28, February 23, 2012 (UTC) That would be aweseome- perhaps a speeding boat that looses torpedos sideways as it travels past?)

I was thinking forward 90 degree 'spread' myself- but I think your version could pose a more interesting tactical slant (trying to shoot it down the middle of a convoy rather than in front or in its general direction like mine).

Brazil

Hazza-the-Fox 08:07, February 15, 2012 (UTC)Like China, Brazil should be the Allied nation that gets the naval unit, as its regular unit is a floating weapons platform + transport with the least amount of limitations.;

Again, no idea what it should actually be.

VolteMetalic 11:46, February 15, 2012 (UTC): Hmm... where did I mentioned broadside battleship? Or, did I?

Hazza-the-Fox 12:02, February 15, 2012 (UTC) you mentioned it in Russia ;)

So how will this one work? (I think I'm pretty open for ideas with Brazil- as presumably their Atlas is expensive and slow-moving (or light) to balance for being otherwise extremely powerful and mobile- so the corresponding ship could either be a complimentary 'fast' ship- or could be a slow ship that reinforces the 'slow heavy' handicap the aircraft provides.

We'd just want to consider how this would play out if I attacked a normal enemy navy with both Atlases and this new ship, along with all the other normal Allied ships still at my disposal- and for that matter, what it does that other ships can't do well enough....

VolteMetalic 21:52, February 16, 2012 (UTC): Well, one of my ideas for a fan-made faction in Paradox, aka a Nazi (but not being Nazi at all) was a "Njord Batleship" or "Njord Dreadnought", I cnat remember now, but it was named Njord. It was large capital ship, armed with... 7 turrets, each mounting two guns (so 14 guns). The point of this unit was that it wasnt a damage dealer, but more of a tank, absorbing enemy fire, while bombarding/supressing enemies (slowing them down, potentially decreasing their firepower or rate of fire), as the guns werent as strong.

This may be used for the broadside battleship. It may be that it will ahve this kind of attack, and being larger than Battlecruiser. It would have these 14 guns (7 on each side), and maybe something on the deck (maybe a mortar-like turret?) and something for Secodnary (maybe Cryo-beamer? :P )

Hazza-the-Fox 09:39, February 17, 2012 (UTC) A quick thing we'd want is to ensure that whatever we choose for a boat- it is something that would still need the assistance of all the other boats available to the side to get ahead- a damage absorber is a good option (maybe even armed with interceptor projectiles?) or incapacitating an enemy ship is also a potentially good idea.

VolteMetalic 16:47, February 17, 2012 (UTC): Yeah, maybe a EMP shot or something. The idea of supressor and tank is fine, and not used. :)

Hazza-the-Fox 23:06, February 17, 2012 (UTC) Perhaps a gigantic ECM device? suppresses the electronics and functions of a single ship (it can still operate as normal- but very slowly and clumsilty) or switches to generating a large ECM field that throws off incoming missiles and drones...

VolteMetalic 11:03, February 19, 2012 (UTC): So you take out the "many gun" thing from this?

Hazza-the-Fox 14:13, February 19, 2012 (UTC) I'm not sure actually- it could still come in quite handy.

Another 'tough choice tactics scenario'- either you keep it back and have it shield the rest of the navy- or charge it forward in the middle of the enemy navy and have it fire all guns....

VolteMetalic 11:35, February 20, 2012 (UTC): I will send it to battle, as they can fire only to the sides, and can absorb the fire to itself so Battlecrusiers can take out a portion of enemy naval forces. This is a little archaic design, but if it can make the job done, why not :) And Brazil is little... they seem to make this kind of warship :D

Hazza-the-Fox 23:27, February 20, 2012 (UTC) HEhe!

I got an idea as well- what if- you tell the ship to attack, it flips to broadside and starts firing volleys- BUT on top of this, something better. The ship was able to fire on the move automatically, but of course, ONLY from its sides- that way you'd get a unit that gets its own fun system of micro (players, rather than attack directly (which they can still do easily), will just navigate this ship through and around enemy lines, the ship shoots anything its flanks facing the whole time- trying to always steer it sideways and down the middle of more enemy lines to get the most out of its flanking attack).

VolteMetalic 14:15, February 21, 2012 (UTC): Exactly! With its complement of 14 guns, it can damage many ships,a nd as being very close to enemy, they will be the primary target for enemy, so Battlecruisers will have a free hand in taking enemy down! :D

Hazza-the-Fox 04:41, February 22, 2012 (UTC) Awesome- so what we have;

Standard-mode- can fire on move, (and move fairly quickly)- but can only shoot broadside. PErhaps it might have shoter range than other ships to encourage the 'routing' technique?

So, for the other mode, should we have ECM. or just slowly turns broadside-to-enemy? (should only be one of the two I reckon)

So that's two units- I reckon perhaps an upgrade as the third option (so far, none of the new units have upgrades- and there are a lot of potential options...)

VolteMetalic 11:49, February 22, 2012 (UTC): Agree with the fire range.

It can be made they will turn to enemy broadside by simply giving order to attack unit. So the EMP is more reasonable. Question is, how will it work? That it will send a EMP wave into designated location, will send a EMP shockwave into all directions (and possibly even shutting down the ship too) or like the Tiberium Sun version, fires from a special energy gun a "EMP ball" into designated area, where it shuts down anything... moment, RA3 Aircraft Carrier has as Secodnary a "Blackout Missile", a missile which is send into designated area, and after impact releases EMP field, disabling anything in the area, being it friend or foe. Possibly it can be also a normal (oversized) gun which fires (oversized) shell which upon impact releases EMP.

Depends on, what options for upgrades you have?

Hazza-the-Fox 12:09, February 22, 2012 (UTC) Cool

Sorry, I mean ECM, not EMP (that deflector-shield thing- did we still want that for this unit or carry it over for another?)

But now you mention it, it does make sense that perhaps it shoots some kind of disruptive projectile over;

Something more to think about;

Upgrade- depends; maybe initially the Atlas cannot transport units? Or doesn't drop them off in armored pods?

VolteMetalic 09:09, February 23, 2012 (UTC): Hmm, I am not sure if ECM or EMP :D

Upgrade- Atlases can transport infantry, but drop them only via drop pods. But maybe the drop pods,a nd so the infantry transport, can be the upgrade :)

Hazza-the-Fox 12:28, February 23, 2012 (UTC) Awesome! If we can do that with the engine then we definitely should!!!!

Cuba

Hazza-the-Fox 12:24, February 15, 2012 (UTC) So- its main unit so far is a bomber that drops toxic stuff, and can detonate overhead causing havoc below (and to whoerver flies through- proving an AA minefield).

Was wondering- after the problem of a stand-alone amphibious take-off craft- is it actually possible to make a boat that can deploy and act like a runway? Possibly even an amphibious unit, for that matter? (though that would look kinda bizarre actually- despite it serving a complimentary function).

VolteMetalic 22:01, February 16, 2012 (UTC): If it will be a MCV-like unit, like a Mobile Airfield, that could work, but thing is that you will need to amke another specialized aircraft, or make Skunk into the flying boat.

Hazza-the-Fox 09:32, February 17, 2012 (UTC) I was thinking of that- and we have some possible options;

1. This Mobile Airfield is an amphibious aircraft carrier/crawler hybrid (like that amphibious Allied battleship in RA3)- this would allow it access to both water and land and thus the attack craft it harbours can attack from any direction. The MiG and Skunk will either;
   1. Both remain as strictly airfield planes that happen to be compatible with the carrier (the Carrier acting as simply another airfield); Thus, both the Skunk and the MiG can be used for all kinds of functions relating to this carrier.
   2. The Skunk can only be built and serviced on this amphibious carrier, the MiG is still limited to the Airfield. In this mode, the Skunk will be left dependent on another whole unit to enter the game- so we want ot consider if this is necessary. The upside of the carrier being amphibious is that both itself and therefore, the Skunk, are viable in maps with no water. Another upside is that the Skunk can employ a larger, more exotic form than the confines of what fits neatly into the Airfield's runways.
2. The Skunk and Cuban MiG are both altered to be 'hybrid' seaplanes/runway-compatible planes, that are compatible with both the airfield, and a water-only 'beacon boat' acting as a floating airfield (still an aircraft carrier- only the planes land "next" to it in the water and float on an 'invisible landing platform' below the surface). This way, the Carrier is limited to water-only maps- but the Skunk is not.
3. The Skunk being carrier-only, and the carrier being water-only. Problem here is that it combines the weakness of the skunk being dependent on the carrier- but also means both units cannot be created in maps without water.

I think all of options between 1 and 2 are equally good- I think the main issue is whether we want

• Do we want an amphibious carrier or not?
• If so, do we want the Skunk to be dependent on it to be built, or both the Skunk and the MiG are runway-compatible craft who can both use the carrier as a base?

VolteMetalic 16:55, February 17, 2012 (UTC): First off, makign a jet capble of landing on water is pure nonsense, as it will tear the aircraft in the moment it will try to take off or land, as it requires great speed. The skunk can b boatplane, which can land on both the airfield and the water carrier. But when I think about it, it will be pretty much redundant. SKunk will be able to launch the attacks on water maps from shorter distance, but that will make it closer to enemy => easier target. So the mobile water airfield dont looks good with this. Maybe to think of off something on ground... like an elite infantry (like some kind of "President's Guard" or something).

Hazza-the-Fox 23:03, February 17, 2012 (UTC) Redundancy is probable (though it also means faster reload time and more bombing runs if the landing strip is closer- plus the landing strip can change locations or retreat to some obscure location in the map and launch attacks from there ;)

That aside, if we're considering infantry units, I reckon a very long-ranged rifleman could work. For if the main national unit is a hit-and-run bomber with a large area attack- obviously the infatnry that is needed the most to compliment it is something that has good defensive value, but is terrible at harming multiple targets- so some kind of speedy guerilla with a long-ranged rifles (nowhere near sniper-ranged though) would work nicely...

VolteMetalic 11:05, February 19, 2012 (UTC): Long ranged rifle, which acts as a sniper rifle but isnt sniper rifle?

Hazza-the-Fox 14:15, February 19, 2012 (UTC) Basically a short-ranged sniper of sorts (far longer-ranged than most infantry units- but nowhere near as far as the Jager or Desolator).

Of course, another thing to keep in mind is that Cuba IS an Island nation mostly attacking continental enemies- so an amphibious aircraft carrier is still a good candidate-

-not that we need not have both if that's what it came down to (2 new units and 1 replacement unit)...

VolteMetalic 11:35, February 20, 2012 (UTC): Replacement? Well, the carrier may be possible to carry Skunks, but Cuba is small and not as wealthy to accomodate a ship of the size of aircraft carrier. If, it will be a "Escort Carrier" with some small aircrafts which arent as effective as normal fighter, but easy to make, it would be possible.

Hazza-the-Fox 00:27, February 21, 2012 (UTC) I was thinking perhaps the Skunk and 'mini amphibious carrier' (looks like RA2 aircraft carrier in fact) could be the new units- and the geurilla could replace the flak trooper (a longer-ranged and faster-moving, but slower-firing version- naturally, he wouldn't do sniper-damage, but his damage would be a bit higher). Possibly, rather than switching to molotovs, he might switch rifle and Stinger/RPG? (weak-ass version mind you).

Or we could just have 3 fresh units...

Anyway, the carrier is definitely meant to be small- only large enough to carry one single skunk (and barely).

VolteMetalic 14:15, February 21, 2012 (UTC): Moment, I am confused about the "guerilla".

Yeah, that may not be a problem :) I think that this is possible. But for the size, it would be as large as normal Drone Carrier, as Skunk is larger than MiG... simply, it would need to be large :)

Hazza-the-Fox 04:49, February 22, 2012 (UTC) Yeah, I'm not so sure about the guerilla either- I was thinking a replacement unit with a generally longer-ranged, higher-damaging but slower-firing rifle than what the conscripts use- either conscripts or flak troopers being the best candidates.

Hmmm- perhaps with these carriers- guess I'll have to think about it.

VolteMetalic 11:49, February 22, 2012 (UTC): I dont know, Conscripts would work perfectly with Cuba as Communist state. Guerilla is something what can more suit to South American state than Caribbean.

In theory the carrier could also carry one MiG, or two, but cant produce them on its own, so you must be supplying them manually from your Airship Hangar.

Hazza-the-Fox 12:11, February 22, 2012 (UTC) True

Sounds good with the carriers- I reckon one aircraft at a time might actually be sufficient (not to mention easier to render and code).

VolteMetalic 09:09, February 23, 2012 (UTC): Ahh, ok, so the small aircraft carrier is solved, at least for now :D

Hazza-the-Fox 12:31, February 23, 2012 (UTC) Yep- by no means is this meant to be a proper aircraft carrier- just a cheap immitation- a long barge JUST large enough for a specialized jet to land on, but small enough to haul ashore (maybe LCAC or amphibious tracks?)

Australia

Hazza-the-Fox 00:15, February 18, 2012 (UTC) NOW things are going to get tough, as the units are going to begin to get more abstract in terms of what their 'dependencies' are;

So, Australia normally gets the Mirage Commando- a moderately heavy short-ranged stealth ambush unit. Needless to say there really isn't anything that can compliment this unit in a direct fight that the normal units can't do already, as its weaknesses are mainly its short-range.

One probable compliment might be a speedy ground-based APC (Bushmaster) that could quickly pick them up, speed them to an ambush spot and unload them (or slip them into the base)- this might in turn allow us to strip the M-COM of any great movement speed (being that its a bit odd that a guy wearing so much heavy electronics could move faster at all). There could be boosts to the Bushmaster, like stealth perhaps- though this could get RIDICULOUSLY overpowered (risk that an APC full of engineers could slip by all defenses and win the game).

That's one thing to think about.

Another is a 'gap generator' (possibly mobile but very very slow one)- which could make all surrounding units invisible (but if necessary that it doesn't create complete stealth- maybe it eminates a slight 'shade' in its radius- so enemies might have a clue that one is around. Alternatively the Defense Burea or Quantum Lab could house their own gap generators. Note that a gap generator would prove a bit redundant when grouped with M-COMs on the field (though the extra stealth helps)- but with other forces (or better yet- in the base) it would prove a huge boost that would ultimately place Australa as the 'stealth' nation.

Looking at these, the benefits of the Bushmaster (without stealth) are quite clear and extensive to helping the M-COMs set up positions. The problem is how it compares to the Blackhawk (also a speedy infantry transport with semi-stealth and ability to fly over obstacles and land anywhere on land- and arguably about as quick- so this is a huge problem in redundancy- unless it was more a 'Bradley-style IFV'- a weak tank with some mild carrying capacity- sorta like how the Hind is a gunship with mild carrying capacity too).

It's a tough one...

VolteMetalic 11:10, February 19, 2012 (UTC): First of all, can you please stop to post ideas for more countries? :D Everytime you add another nation to consider, and now even 4! I am loosing an orientation like this :D

Bushmaster is good idea, and the Secodnary may be to activate the "Stealth System", which will work like that Bushmaster will get invisible, but not fully. There will be small shade of it so visually you can find it, but it will be in-game invisible. Something like Alarm Bypass Training, only that the vehicle is nearly invisible... how to expalin it... that the unit is transparent, but you can still find the silhouette. And it is unarmed.

Hazza-the-Fox 14:20, February 19, 2012 (UTC) Ok, basically Australia is also ANZAC, ANZ or the South Pacific Commonwealth (New Zealand and most of the Pacific are part of this alliance, headed by Australia)- I'm just cycling the names for the possible best pick ;)

Alarm Bypass training! Excellent idea!!!!!!

Ditto on the 'dark patch stealth' too- quite a nice touch ;)

I'd reckon it would need to have this ability on full-time rather than activated (to accomodate infantry entry/exit), and perhaps, it can carry only a small amount of troops (say, 3-4) to not overshadow the other transports, but perhaps does carry some kind of weapon (it can only attack when ordered- and wipes all its stealth bonuses if it uses it)

VolteMetalic 11:35, February 20, 2012 (UTC): Ohh, damn... I forgot the Secodnary to dissembark infnatry :P Ok, so full-time. And weapon... maybe 2-3 missiles?

Hazza-the-Fox 00:23, February 21, 2012 (UTC) Could work! On the other hand for the missiles, the M-COM himself fills the suprise-heavy-hitter role; so perhaps it could instead get a Redback Electronic machinegun with light armor-piercing bullets. The result is it might really force the Bushmaster to hold its fire, as its damage would be accumulative (the gunner fires like a machinegun against ground to save ammo- but against air he fires the million-round-per-minute volley- essentially attacking like a Flak Raider's Flak gun.

And on that note- this could potentially be a replacement for the Sentry Turret (the Redback Turret- the Bushmaster's version being only a light version).

VolteMetalic 14:15, February 21, 2012 (UTC): Huh... I am little confused here. Redback Electronic machine gun?

Hazza-the-Fox 04:58, February 22, 2012 (UTC) The "Redback" is probably the most awesome gun in the world; by Australian company Metalstorm, it is a 40mm electronic 'stack' gun (all bullets are stored in the barrel itself, and fired by electric signal instead of a firing mechanism)- allowing the gun to fire at EXTREME rates;

Here is a youtube of one- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_AiAq_3Y75c&feature=related

Needless to say, this would be perfect as a Sentry Turret replacement ;)

Naturally, the bushmaster would get a much smaller electronic gun, that functions like a machinegun against ground (but light flak against air- so basically one puff and a slow reload).

VolteMetalic 11:49, February 22, 2012 (UTC): Ahh, Metalstorm, now I get it :D Hmm... for Bushmaster (I suppose it is the name of this APC) it would be great, but for Sentry Turret... I can imagine how many tracers comes out from the "machine gun", like a firework :D

Hazza-the-Fox 12:24, February 22, 2012 (UTC) Yep!

Don't forget that the rate of fire for metal storm guns is entirely controllable/programmable- so the gunners can actually set their firing mode and rate of fire depending on what the situation prefers. More importantly, the larger the rounds, the less the gun can fit in the barrel (a Redback may hold maybe 3-5 40mm rounds per barrel against a few dozen per barrel in the smaller-caliber guns)- so a Redback gunner may well be rationing rounds almost as much as the Sentry Cannon- shooting scarecely at concealed ground targets to not waste ammo- but against air, simply blasts all barrels at once. :)

So there would actually be a huge difference between a redback and the 36-barrel prototype; the first is essentially a multishot light cannonette, while the other a true-machinegun; the only difference is they can both plaster the skies with a could of projectiles (or plaster the ground from a helicopter better than a minigun- which may prove a worthwhile minor tweak for the Blackhawk).

VolteMetalic 09:09, February 23, 2012 (UTC): Hmm... ok, but still I think that Sentry Gun would keep its gun as it has now :)

Weapon for Blackhawk, hmm? Maybe :)

Hazza-the-Fox 12:36, February 23, 2012 (UTC) Oh well- I'll hold onto the Redback just in case- as it could pose an interesting twist on defense

I think blackhawk would make sense- as the multibarreled Metalstorm-type weapons were designed as gatling gun replacements (and technically a lot cheaper too)- so gatling-type weapons would definitely be substituted on the likes of choppers- for gameplay, simply does more damage to ground, and does 'flak trooper' puff-damage to air.

Czechoslovakia

Hazza-the-Fox 00:15, February 18, 2012 (UTC) Now for a really tough one- what on earth would the Tesla Tank need for help? It's fast, reasonably heavy, can destroy most units it hits, can mow down masses of infantry- and its poor range is offset by the regular units covering it.

Perhaps- some kind of unit that deploys into some kind of infantry defense (or 'trench cover' in the field? So while the Tesla Tanks charge forward, any soldiers remaining behind get a strong position to fight from?

VolteMetalic 11:14, February 19, 2012 (UTC): Czech has a good place for the defenses thanks to all the mountains here. Also we were preparing for the WW2 by building many bunkers along the borders, so this is pretty good approach. Also, we are pretty "smart" (as here we created Tessla Tanks), so also there is an option of making something also high-tech. In theory, maybe to recreate "TAMARA" and "VERA" radio-location systems, as away to reveal units in the vicinity which are radar-invisible (like Blackhawk).

Or, in Czech we have an elite Hind squadron called "Tiger Squadron", so maybe Czechoslovakia may have upgraded Hind, like Japan has Marines :)

Hazza-the-Fox 13:46, February 19, 2012 (UTC) Yep- I remember my WW2 history about Czech bunkers causing Germany a lot of trouble.

And to answer your question, I'd possibly go with all of the above :)

• Some kind of fortifying mobile listening post- when deployed, it provides armor-boost for nearby infantry (maybe a mild boost for vehicles- though not much)- and doubles as some kind of sensor (possibly a Psi Sensor even). Thus creates an interesting sword-and-shield relationship with Tesla Tanks (of course, I think to balance this new unit should be very expensive).
• Replace the regular Hind with the "Tiger Squadron" Hind - any recommendations for it? Actually, anything particular about the Tiger Squadron you know about that would be appropriate to incorporate?

That would of course leave us with a similar amount of augmentations as the other sides so far (naturally, as Czech main unit is Tesla-based and benefits from the upgrade already- no national upgrades will be necessary).

VolteMetalic 11:35, February 20, 2012 (UTC): Well, regarding the Hind I foudn that LTiger Squadron" is present in every state of NATO... but for that, the "Tiger Hind" would have the same design like normal, only that it will ahve the painted stripes on it, like this, and the tiger's head on the front (sides from the cockpit).

For the listening post, merging VERA with some mobile bunker... I dont know, hmm...

Hazza-the-Fox 00:15, February 21, 2012 (UTC) I meant is there anything distinctive about how Tiger Squadron attacks? (although thinking about it- a simple all-round boost can't hurt- maybe)

Listening Post- I'd agree- only it needs to deploy to do either of these things (though it could simply only store conscripts). Actually, I like the idea that it needs to deploy into a forward outpost more- it sets it apart more from the Battle Fortress- and gives it a more 'hold the line' function to protect your infantry who in turn protect your artillery (while the Tesla Tank races ahead to attack).

VolteMetalic 14:15, February 21, 2012 (UTC): I dont know, I know only that they are the best ones.

Hmm... ok.

Hazza-the-Fox 05:04, February 22, 2012 (UTC) Well, in THAT case, let's review what we got and decide for possible stat alterations; We have a speedy but strong, short-ranged hard-hitting Tesla vehicle, a deployable forward-defense outpost with some form of sensory abilities,

So perhaps the Tigers simply get some kind of greatly improved weapons? And with THAT in mind- what would Soviet air need augmented? (or what would you prefer?) It could also improve its troop carrying-capacity- or in reverse, completely sacrifices ability to carry infantry with ability to drop bombs instead (exactly like the real-life Hind can do).

VolteMetalic 11:49, February 22, 2012 (UTC): Yep.

Definitely imporved weapons, better ammunition. I dont know what Soviet Air Force could need to augment.

Hinds can drop bombs? Heh :P No, the troop transport need to be maintained, otherwise CZS will have to wait for MYL at T4 (is it T4) to transport infantry by air.

Hazza-the-Fox 12:34, February 22, 2012 (UTC) Yeah, that's the tough part for the Hind- its already fine! One possibility though- perhaps- the Hind's missiles are normally light area-effect vs the Commanche's accurate hard-hitters- do you think the Tigers aught get accurate hard-hitters instead?

Another option- STEALTH..... (would be especially good at infantry shuttling).

And yes, they definitely CAN drop bombs! That's one of the reasons they are so popular- as sometimes they simply load up some half-ton gravity bombs in the infantry/cargo holds, and throw them over the sides for demolishing fortified targets and strongholds- they even tried a few Fuel-Air bombs; but those were a little too powerful.

But of course, if you reckon they should stick to transporting infantry, that is also fine.

On another note- I was thinking of changing the Hind's design back to the sleeker version, rather than the modified version with the extra bulky 'nose'- thoughts? Perhaps the 'bulky' version could be the National version? or vice-versa?

VolteMetalic 09:09, February 23, 2012 (UTC): Yeah, maybe it cna have hard-hitting area effect missiles :D

Stealth is something what is speciality of Allies. Soviets are a kind of "we want you to see us, and fear pf what you see" :)

Aha :D

I like the bulky nose, it makes it unique and makes it tougher. Would keep it for both :)

Hazza-the-Fox 12:44, February 23, 2012 (UTC) So you reckon upgrade the damage of the 'spam' missiles, or actually replace its usual missile pods with a slightly more 'localized' damage heavy missile that does more direct-damage but still does some splash? (I reckon the second one is best- as it moves the Tiger into a new niche of skirmish, while the T-Tank handles head-first assault to smash several units up close, and the mobile fort handles forward defense ;)

No probs for stealth (we should still keep it in mind- as if we give one of the other Soviet factions something like this- it could prove a 'whoa shit!' issue for an enemy Allied player having to deal with stealth Soviets ;)

Germany

Hazza-the-Fox 00:15, February 18, 2012 (UTC) Another tricky one- obviously the Nashorn is a specialist against tanks- but at the same time, whatever compliments this shouldn't necessarily be a super-anti-infantry unit (too obvious- and we have plenty of units that are fine against infantry). At the same time, something that explicitly increases the damage against vehicles or air might also tip the scales too strongly for anti-armor attacks.

VolteMetalic 11:17, February 19, 2012 (UTC): Ok, and what about howitzer based on PzH 2000? No specific ideas yet, only the Secodnary to shoot several shots which will land on the designated area at once, resulting in great explosion.

Hazza-the-Fox 13:34, February 19, 2012 (UTC) Hmmm, I think we're on the right track with some ranged support- a napalm-based ranged attacker could work too- I was thinking another possible idea that could work nicely is a soldier carrying a "Little Red Riding Hood" deployable missile launcher that launches a (targetable) drone that sprays napalm over targets it passes (though not a very long or broad amount of carnage- don't want it stealing the Sonic Tank's thunder).

VolteMetalic 11:35, February 20, 2012 (UTC): So howitzer armed with napalm shells?

Hazza-the-Fox 00:10, February 21, 2012 (UTC) Maybe- thoguh now I think as it's starting to overlap a possible function for Italy's star unit- we may want to sort that one out first and get back to this one ;)

VolteMetalic 14:15, February 21, 2012 (UTC): Why you fear overlapping between National units of two countries? I dont get it.

Hazza-the-Fox 05:40, February 22, 2012 (UTC) WAIT! I got it! I got the perfect complimentary unit (probably call it the Kyrasser or Valkyrie; see below)!

Firstly, a very good question you asked- its the fear that if Country A had an awesome unit partnered with a duplicate of Country B's unit, too many people would skip Country B for the better package deal country A provides. But I was thinking today, the real problem is Germany ALREADY has the Nashorn itself filling the role of support-fire self-propelled gun, and a second one would simply mean the nation merely needs to be rolling two twin attack guns into range, and mixing the damage differences- and what Germany needs IS an attack in the style of a mortar/artillery unit with some area-effect; but more of something more the opposite to a support gun- speedy, short-ranged, fleeting area-attack hit-and-run unit. Also, we have very few grenade units in the mix.

So I reckon, what Germany needs is an armored grenadier on a motorbike, with a bag of modernized "potato-mashers" and incendiaries behind his seat. He simply speeds towards a group of enemies, throws the grenade and flees. I've thought of some interesting specs (though of course some may prove unecessary or impossible to code);

• It would be impossible to fumble for a grenade while riding a moving motorcycle, so I thought that he should have an alternative to the gunship's "finite ammo system"- he can only 'hold' one grenade in his hand at a time, and once he throws it (either the first enemy he nears- or the specific target), he is unarmed (except for his secondary- see bottom point). However, instead of slowly regenerating over time- he regenerates a new grenade after a second or two of standing still (or alternatively- after throwing the grenade, there is a few seconds of delay- AFTER which he may get a grenade imediately if he is stationary) Otherwise he simply takes a while to arm another grenade.
• His grenades take half a second to detonate once they land- allowing enemies to move out of the way (but compromising their position). The grenades damage only a tiny area, but do good damage to infantry and some structures and light vehicles alike (just like real potato mashers- unlike the weaker but more widespread damage of pineapple grenades). Naturally, the grenades can be thrown further than ordinary grenades- and can be thrown over walls.
• Not sure on secondary- caltrups?
• A last point about his specs- his stats change when he is moving or stationary- when stationary, he is at his 'normal' level of defense- extremely vulnerable, and also crushable by any vehicle. When moving, he has much more armor- and he is completely uncrushable by enemy tanks as he swerves around them (but dogs and terror drones can probably still jump on him- or not). He cannot however, crush anything himself.

With this unit, it means we have one longer-ranged heavy-support fire unit for direct-combat, and one speedy harasser to 'unseat' the enemy support units in turn. Plus, it will serve as one of the unique close-and-personal assault units. Both units do things the other cannot, and both together greatly need every other unit to help them as well as each other. Finally, it means Germany gets their 'fun-micro' unit (like Magnetron, Crazy Ivan and Brazillian 'broadside' ship). Leaving a howitzer type unit available for another side;

VolteMetalic 11:49, February 22, 2012 (UTC): Hmm... Soviets in RA3 Uprising has exactly the same unit, the Mortar Bike :D only that it could reload while riding, and some people were saying it was too strong.

I am not a big fan of "bike units", especially with throwing grenades, just like a scout with a machine gun. But there can be a possibility to keep it. And that is "Panzergrenadier". They are German mechanized infantry, which in RAZ can be armed with an assault rifle (mix of G36 and FG 42), along with an attached grenade launcher, which can serve the same role as the bike's grenades :) The Secodnary will be to Switch between the assault rifle and greande launcher.

Thoughts?

Hazza-the-Fox 12:48, February 22, 2012 (UTC) YES! Excellent idea! Toggles between assault rifle (I propose a more 'carbine' version as a smaller design would be easier to use on a bike) and grenades.

I still reckon it should be a bike- I normally find bikes a rather impractical unit to fight with myself- but it instantly stands out against all the buggies,jeeps and battlesuits we've already got- and is believably a cheap drastic resort that instantly explains any functional drawbacks and nerfs the unit suffers (that being Germany simply were squeezing dollars and were desperate enough to try such a drastic idea. Besides, it IS Germany, combat motorbikes aren't too far out of character! :P

With the grenades, it would depend on how we want them balanced- as close-range 'thrown' grenades with a fuse might actually pose the more balanced 'nerfed' version, for mainly the damage isn't guaranteed but it will always screw with the enemy's lines and prevent them from attacking. While rifle-grenades tend to explode on impact, meaning the damage they do is always guaranteed.

VolteMetalic 09:09, February 23, 2012 (UTC): I am more for the infantry, because bike looks like that it is only a riding motor with a seat, which can be blown out by one shot from practically any vehicle in Soviet vehicle arsenal :D Carbine with grenade launcher also sounds good.

Hazza-the-Fox 12:52, February 23, 2012 (UTC) That weakness is actually the idea of course ;) When he is stationary, he would take as much damage as an armored guy on a bike could take (which of course, is almost none except from infantry weapons maybe due to his armor)- but when moving, his speed makes him harder to hit (which is fairly true- especially for enemy vehicles)- so he gains an 'armor bonus' when mobile, but no bonus and is awfully fragile when still. That aside, he's cheap :P

No probs- so you are fine with the grenades actually exploding on contact with the targets rather than fuse?

Korea

Hazza-the-Fox 00:15, February 18, 2012 (UTC) Well, this might be potentially easier- or not.

The Magnetron is the perfect semi-passive anti-long-range-vehicle unit, and also excellent for micro-ing (especially if it can levitate vehicles and drop them). It is completely vulnerable to infanry, and generally vulnerable in close range (unless it can reach them to mow that all down with its grinder).

Of course, it can be protected quite thoroughly by all the other units (Tesla Troopers, Devestators, Conscripts, Tanks etc).

The question is, what IS Korea missing with its Magnetron? A speedy short-ranged attack unit maybe (though Flak Raiders and Terror Drones may fill this void too).

A damn tough one.

VolteMetalic 11:18, February 19, 2012 (UTC): Here, I have no ideas really... Maybe a propaganda vehicle. Like Commissar boosts morale of infantry, this will boost morale of vehicles.

Hazza-the-Fox 13:51, February 19, 2012 (UTC) That could work quite nicely- that is definitely one good idea.

I had a crazy idea to maybe let Korea have a Yuri-style Gattling unit of some kind (narrowed it down to either an amphibious gattling platform- or replace the Conscript or Flak Trooper with a Minigunner).

I think having one of new vehicle units amphibious may prove handy (or even the Grinder-Magnetron itself)- as story-wise, Korea's main theater is Japan (and the surrounding seas and Oceans, to an extent). So although their need for a national ship isn't great gameplay-wise, it still makes some sense to give them a bit extra water access

VolteMetalic 11:35, February 20, 2012 (UTC): Agree. An amphibious gatling tank :D it amy be based on Shilka a little, regarding the design and the weapons (only it will have 2 gatling guns).

Hazza-the-Fox 00:08, February 21, 2012 (UTC)That could work! I think the amphibious gattling platform may prove all-round most useful and unique (not to mention symbiotic in function to the Magnetron's tractor beam). Naturally its ROF builds up the longer it fires.

VolteMetalic 14:15, February 21, 2012 (UTC): You wanted something about Magnetic Ship here for Korea :)

Hazza-the-Fox 05:44, February 22, 2012 (UTC) correct! Let's discuss!

1. One option is that the Magnetron can be amphibious and does the same function to tanks and ships alike. Now, I don't expect this option- but thought it a good idea to bring up
2. A stand-alone magnetic ship. Now I think perhaps this one either *could* do roughly the same thing the Magnetron does, or the same function you recommended in the Russia thread, locks down the ship and pulls ITSELF to the ship (noting that this is also what the Kirov does for its secondary).

And there are plenty more that I can't think of right now- I think seeing that it is a rather abstract ability, we can see what we come up with!

VolteMetalic 11:49, February 22, 2012 (UTC): The secodn option is better, but why pulling itself to the enemy?

Hazza-the-Fox 12:50, February 22, 2012 (UTC) Just listing all possibilities; but I'd agree having the ship pull the enemy from THEIR position towards itself does make more tactical sense.

So- any similarities or differences we'd want to consider between this ship and the ground-Magnetron? Perhaps the Mag-ship has a crew of naval marines who will hijack and assume control of the victim ship once it is pulled into the Mag-ship's docks?!?

VolteMetalic 09:09, February 23, 2012 (UTC): I dont know... but probably it can be like "Naval Magnetron", pretty much the same like Magnetron, only on a ship. They dont contradict each other, possibly only at the shores.

Hazza-the-Fox 12:53, February 23, 2012 (UTC) That would probably be fine;

So we're dealing with two magnetron variants- and probably still gatling vehicle?

Hazza-the-Fox 13:07, March 5, 2012 (UTC) I reckon Korea needs a unit that 'fleshes' the country out more- with Japan getting katana infantry to its Prism Tanks, it feels strange that Korea only gets a few passive magnets;

I had possibly considered that maybe they get a cyborg 'gattling soldier' (works exactly like YR Gatling tank- even moves fairly quickly- but only does typical infantry-rifle damage to enemy soldiers- albiet at a higher rate of fire)

VolteMetalic 09:18, March 6, 2012 (UTC): Cyborg infantry? I am not sure about that, it seems too technological for Korea :) But gattlign infantry dont sounds that bad :) Along with Magnetron and Magnetic Ship :)

Hazza-the-Fox 11:07, March 6, 2012 (UTC) Keep in mind this is north AND south- so they'd have the tech if necessary ;)

But no probs; generally a gattling soldier- I can provide a few alternate illustrations :)

VolteMetalic 09:54, March 8, 2012 (UTC): Yeah, but still it looks like too much :)

We will see :) I would love to see an infantry armed with rapid-firing weapon, which is carried like a heavy machine gun :)

Hazza-the-Fox 09:03, March 9, 2012 (UTC) Definitely a trooper I agree.

As I said, I'll try multiple concepts; though I'm leaning towards a more cybernetic guy (or battlesuit if Korea takes the more expensive option)- as it would be pretty hard for a guy to lift and fire an AA gatling gun- even one compacted to infantry size- besides, the cyborg doesn't have to be expensive and complex- merely a guy with terror-drone limbs and a prosthetic back-brace should do the trick ;P

America

Hazza-the-Fox 14:38, February 19, 2012 (UTC) ignore my generic-ish naming- I do mean to go back to nations to re-clarify what names to give them- properly (and also coming up with exotic alt-reality flags to give them ;)

This is the USA/Canada alliance, whose unit is the Centurion.

So, if we've got an armored soldier with a fairly heavy suppressive fire gun at fairly long ranges- what would this nation possibly need?

VolteMetalic 11:35, February 20, 2012 (UTC): Hmm... one of the ideas is a heavy battleship, but that would take Battlecruiser's role (or being its heavier replacement, only for America). Another option is aircraft, like a heavy bomber like B-52, or possibly stealth bomber B2. Or some high-tech thing, like "Laser Tank" or "Microwave Tank" which can be great in clearing garrisons and killing infantry, or just supressing it (like in real-life). Quite based on one from ZH.

Or maybe an advanced AA platform, which cna fight better with heavy Soviet aircrafts (airships), and as Cuba has Skunk this could be a defense against them. This idea is based on M48 Chaparral. It would be a truck with tracks, and with few heavy AA missiles, which are launched one by one with delay of 2-4 seconds (one missile fired -> 2-4 seconds -> second missile fired etc.). After it fires all missiles, it will relaod for quite some time, but two salvos can take down Kirov. And this vehicle is slow and poorly armored.

Hazza-the-Fox 00:03, February 21, 2012 (UTC) THere are quite a few options we could use- and you definitely make a good point that Cuba's Skunk would be weighing heavily in;

I think if USA were to get a boat, it should only be a light patrol-boat of some sort (as its coverage and the Centurions would be about the same);

For AA- I reckon perhaps the US get a replacement gunship to Comanche with AA missiles? (perhaps even a more assault-oriented gunship that lacks stealth? Keeping in mind that suppressive fire is probably unnecessary as the Centurion already does this)

This is a tough one;

VolteMetalic 14:15, February 21, 2012 (UTC): I was talking about a vehicle, a truck, not infantry or helicopter :D The "Chaparral" will be great agaisnt fighters and airships, but weak agaisnt gunships, so Wildcat can be used agaisnt Hinds.

Hazza-the-Fox 05:51, February 22, 2012 (UTC) That could work!

Also, thinking about it- we don't really HAVE to worry about the Wildcat's missing out on AA fulfilment- as they would be accomodating infantry-builds too! Alternatively, if we are still concerned, the Chaparral could have a different delivery of damage vs rate of fire (while the Wildcat could be light and semi-frequent, the Chaparral could unleash a bigger missile at a slower rate- or an cluster of SAM or a single aircraft-killer at a very slow rate (though airships would still take a heavy beating). But we can do anything with it really.

And of course, anything we feel is 'missing' we can add as the Chaparral's secondary ability (and not really sure what it actually DOES need- but we know that there are currently not many short-ranged functions- not that this is a bad thing, as it would make America an arms-length combat faction- delivering heavy damage from afar, but having less abilities up close).

VolteMetalic 11:49, February 22, 2012 (UTC): Yes, Chapparal (not neccesery to be named like this :D) is armed with few missiles, which does great damage to aircrafts and airships, but small to helicopters and gunships. The time between the firing missiles is few seconds, and once it launches all its payload, it needs a lot of time (maybe 15 seconds, or less) to reload all missiles and be ready to fire again. Probably two Chaparrals are needed to destroy in one salvo a Kirov.

For Secondary, i dont know... maybe to somehow force it to fire faster, but with some big drawback? Maybe... It will ahve two modes. A single missile mode, and full salvo mode. SIngle missile means it wil fire one missile, wait a little, fires another, and so. And when it fires the last one, the first missile will be reloaded so it can fire again. Constantly firing. Full salvo is that all its missiles are fired at once (so 2 Chaparrals switching to this can take down Kirov in seconds), but will ahve to wait the whole time to reload all missiles, in the meantime its vulnerable.

Hazza-the-Fox 12:57, February 22, 2012 (UTC) OR maybe even large damage to gunships and airships, but low damage to jets?

That aside, I'd strongly agree that it is overall a slower-firing heavy SAM, and those stats sound good (perhaps it also has a small-ish payload?)

Secondary- could work- or it could be another optional way the SAM normally fires;

Alternatively, its secondary could be some ground function (maybe a defensive one- OR, perhaps, an offensive closer-ranged function- a nice twist on a normally defensive-oriented unit?)

VolteMetalic 09:09, February 23, 2012 (UTC): It is meant to be strictly AA only unit, and like you said heavy SAM with slow-firing mode, as its missiles are very deadly. Maybe like Chaparral armed with four missiles.

For the Secondary, it is meant to be more like a way how to weaken, or if in group destroy incoming Kirovs, which can be too tough to be quickly destroyed. Like in RA3 in Allied campaign, where Soviets delivered Kirovs on Cuba and send them to America. America resolved to make a heavy SAM to protect their lands :)

Hazza-the-Fox 12:56, February 23, 2012 (UTC) I think with its initial damage settings it may be strong enough against air (and Kirovs aught still be an intense menace and huge diversion to any forces- as that is the main purpose they serve to begin with- so anything that can stop them doing this aught to come at great cost).

Of course, it could always carry ECM devices (or launch ECM decoy missiles)- or- possibly even some kind of AA 'flares' to prevent aircraft from being able to shoot while nearby (temporarily blinding the pilots).

VolteMetalic 09:57, March 8, 2012 (UTC): Something like "Flashbang Missile"? :D That dont sounds like a bad idea at all!!! :D

Hazza-the-Fox 08:45, March 9, 2012 (UTC) Cool! I reckon we've nailed it! W

Now for its appearance! (and name if necessary- though I'm not picky if we want to keep Chaparral)

Ukraine

Hazza-the-Fox 14:38, February 19, 2012 (UTC) I'm starting to think switching Ukraine and Poland, so Ukraine gets the Desolator is probably the best idea (as people will probably think we intended to give the country with the bad nuclear history the nuclear-power unit anyway- but chickened out and switched).

Either way we decide, this entry we're talking about whichever nation gets the DESOLATOR.

Long-ranged, heavy attack, armored, and radioactive; What else would this country need?

I'm thinking the best solution is simply to give some kind of mobile nuclear generator that boosts his damage or something (along with generating power when deployed)...

VolteMetalic 11:35, February 20, 2012 (UTC): And what Poland has now?

Well, Ukraine is producing tanks, so definitely a tracked vehicle. Possibility is RAD Tank, but it can take out Desolator... one option is to give someone from Soviets an ICBM Launcher Trailer (Scud or Topol M-1), that can fire for great distances (greater than most artillery), with a deadly payload but insane reload time (painfully slow), and as a truck very slow and with no armor.

Or... one idea from one mod I was working (and leading) on, Asia had one heavy tank, which was armed with big gun, and powered by nuclear energy. It was primarily like a tank destroyer and siege breaker, and had an ability to release radiation in the area, but is vulnerable in thsi state (as it reveals the reactor). This wont be given, or it will take Desoaltor's ability, but a lathe tank destroyer could be possible choice. Like a counter to Nashorn.

Hazza-the-Fox 23:55, February 20, 2012 (UTC) Poland would get the Crazy Ivan of course! (both countries switch).

Hmmm, those are good choices- a painfully slow and vulnerable nuclear siege vehicle is definitely sounding the most approapriate...

I guess it is quite obvious that some kind of nuclear-related attack is the way to go- though as we both know, it shouldn't overlap precisely what the Desolator does (and he stands as an anti-sniper unit of sorts already- though he doesn't necessarily need quite as long range as them as he is heavily armored).

VolteMetalic 14:15, February 21, 2012 (UTC): Ok, so it is a heavy siege tank, which is somewhere between Mauler and Devastator. Armed with one large gun, powered by nuclear reactor...

Hazza-the-Fox 06:37, February 22, 2012 (UTC) yes! I was thinking a slightyl even larger-sized 'mortar-tank' with a single short wide gun that shoots slow-velocity nuclear rounds- and of course, powered by nuclear reactor (which leaks if the tank is destroyed). Should probably be lighter than Devestator- but generally fits the 'much heavier' range for vehicles. Its power being offset by its slow projectiles being easily avoided (but forcing the enemy to vacate their post or suffer).

Most importantly, it helps break up its attack from the Desolator Trooper- being that the Des is a direct-shot, and the 'Nuke Mortar' is a slow-up-and-over shooter.

Actually, this could take the need from the Devestator Tank to carry all the nuclear stuff and focus on being strictly a heavy weapons vehicle, without needing a nuclear theme. Similarly, it can take away the emphasis for the Desolator to generate as much radioactive fallout when he shoots an enemy soldier (though I think its good that he retains some of it). (in turn, the Devestator Tank may need a rename to "Destroyer" or something to prevent verbal confusion with Desolator (trooper).

Also, perhaps this Nuke Mortar vehicle's reactor feeds nearby Desolator's guns? (maybe as its deploy?)

Alternatively, it can shoot a huge cluster of smaller radioactive rounds/spent fuel rods (admittedly this alternative would make it a bit like the Mortar Pit though- but removes any 'clear' better unit between itself and the Desolator- one peppers from long range, the other snipes)

VolteMetalic 11:49, February 22, 2012 (UTC): As mortar, one idea from my favorite game S.W.I.N.E. is at hand. There, a "mortar tanks" has ability to "fold the gun" into the turret, greatly increasing their defense, but unable to fire. It is prety simialr to Sentry Turret, only that mortars cant repair itself. So probably not a good idea.

So basically, this heavy siege tank will fire huge shells, which detoantes like small nuke, and as Secondary it can contaminate the area with "wasted fuel"... as you said, it will amke like Mortar Pit, but that wont be a problem at all :)

Destroyer can more emphasize a ship than tank. Maybe Mamoth? Elephant? Mastodon? Or use classical Apocalypse? Ragnarok?

Hazza-the-Fox 13:09, February 22, 2012 (UTC) Why not that first ability? Perhaps, as an insane twist, it deploys into some kind of emergency field reactor?!?! (generates power, also powers up nearby Desolators).

For attack- generally, yes! We will have to simply tweak it in-game depending on how powerful it is (or if we need its damage concentrated or dispersed- noting that the Desolator would be more 'concentrated' already).

I reckon the 'Devestator' name- the elephant names sadly sink into the other CNC versions too easily- same with Apocalypse- I do like Ragnarok a lot (was thinking of that one for a while- it sounds a bit odd when its said out loud- though not that much- definitely no more than 'apocalypse'), or Rapture (nice short name- problem with this is that it only sounds threatening to some people but not others- 'rapture' for some is synonymous with 'bliss' while for others it is the next and final stage of the apocalypse where the "worthy" are saved and the unworthy annihilated)...

VolteMetalic 09:09, February 23, 2012 (UTC): Hmm... no, I would dont make it into another power plant, only if it can still use its gun :)

Hmm... and what about Annihilator? And Rapture dont tells me anything :D

Hazza-the-Fox 12:59, February 23, 2012 (UTC) I'd agree actually- as I realized that if it merely charged the Desolators, its function would be limited to ultimately which mode does more damage (this vehicle, or charged Desolators). Having said that, I still think it aught do some passive bonus- as emitting Radiation around itself is already what the Desolator does;

Annihilator sounds awesome! Let's use that one!

Hazza-the-Fox 12:52, March 5, 2012 (UTC) Ok, have been thinking about Ukraine and I've figured out what they should get and what changes we aught to make to our arsenal;

1. The Desolator's range and 'attack splash' is reduced ( the first closer to RA2's version)- and rate of fire and damage increased- he is now more geared for combat rather than sniping. All his other bonuses (like his Heroic atomic cannon) still apply. Possibly his armor gets an increase.
2. The second unit is indeed a gigantic heavy mortar-super-tank that launches radioactive cannisters. Whatever gets hit takes a huge amount of damage, but instead of splash, it spreads a wide area of radiation. Overall, the damage is more mild but spread around- making THIS unit the anti-sniper/anti-defender that forces the enemy off their ground.
3. The end result- the Desolator focuses on general ranged-combat, the new 'Mortar' is the long-ranged softener. As the Desolator has the 'irradiate ground' ability, the mortar should probably get something else (either some form of boost via its nuclear engine- or something else). Of course, the Mortar will leak radiation if it is destroyed.
4. Obviously, we could strip the Mortar Pit defense of its radioactive cannister, and have it focus entirely on firing the cluster shells. (perhaps calling it the "Cluster Mortar Pit".)

VolteMetalic 09:54, March 6, 2012 (UTC): So Desolator changes into frontline fighter, and the Siege Tank is for heavy combat and artillery, and possibly upgraded Mortar Pit, yes? :) Thought I think Mortar Pit can be augmented for more radiation, rather than taking that out :)

Hazza-the-Fox 11:07, March 6, 2012 (UTC) Yes and yes for the first two-

for the Mortar Pit- I was thinking the reverse- actually taking radiation away from it for the Soviets as a whole, and focusing on the cluster munitions (but possibly Ukraine can fire irradiated cluster-bombs instead). That way it helps the new Siege Tank to stand a unique purpose- rather than a mobile mortar;

Also- I was thinking, perhaps between the Siege Gun and our regular 'mammoth' tank- I figured, one could be called the Annihilator- and the other could be called the Behemoth or something! (perhaps the Annihilator is the mortar- and the Behemoth the mammoth?) I dunno- there are a lot more names coming in (and plenty of mythical beasts to name them after)!

VolteMetalic 10:00, March 8, 2012 (UTC): Irradiated cluster bombs? How would they work?

So the current "Devastator" could be named "Behemoth", and the Ukraine Siege Tank would be named "Annihilator", yes? That soudns fine :)

Hazza-the-Fox 08:45, March 9, 2012 (UTC) Basically, the cluster-mortar attack that leaves fallout. Sprinkles shrapnel/mini-bombs over ground target that each leave tiny radioactive patches where they fall.

For names- cool- let's do it!

Great Britain

Hazza-the-Fox 14:38, February 19, 2012 (UTC) They have the Hurricane- the most unstoppable aircraft in the game which neither needs (nor deserves) any further assistance. That aside, the UK is probably the most vulnerable as between refueling this jet, they have no extra units to defend or fight with (which isn't necessarily a bad handicap).

Nonetheless, we must somehow think of an appropriate unit to add- BUT the good news is, it can be pretty much anything we want and it won't really matter so much as there is simply no way it can really interfere with or outshine the Hurricane (whatever the unit is, it simply mustn't give too excellent a boost).

(on another note- if you ever remember what that idea you had regarding what the boost for the Hurricane was to be- it may make a good upgrade).

VolteMetalic 11:35, February 20, 2012 (UTC): Sorry, i dont remember that, but it should be there at Hurricane's section :)

Hmm... one of the options is a sniper, but that is Jager's role... maybe an anti-armor sniper. Or ship as Britain had in the past the largest navy in the world, to keep all its dominions secured. For another infantry, SAS Specialist/Operative is another option. There is simply too many possibiltiies that I cant pick on one :D

Hazza-the-Fox 23:47, February 20, 2012 (UTC) No probs;

Hmmm- I'm tempted to simply replace the standard battleship with a better but more expensive version, and the Jager with SAS trooper (which, as you say, could have an armor-piercing rifle good against Tesla Troopers, Terror Drones and each shot damages and (very briefly) slows incoming enemy vehicles- but perhaps has some great drawback).

VolteMetalic 14:15, February 21, 2012 (UTC): So repalce Battlecruiser with a British stronger variant, like were dreadnoughts? Named "Battleship" maybe?

Ok, so SAS Specialists as replacement for Jager, armed with anti-material rifle.

Hazza-the-Fox 06:15, February 22, 2012 (UTC) Sounds good, and sounds good!

The question now is, what precisely should the Heavy Battleship and SAS Commando get in terms of advantages and disadvantages to their non-nat counterparts?

First thing I can think of for SAS- their rifle takes a longer time to deploy/undeploy, and they cannot move when the AM rifle is deployed at all (while the Jager simply moves extremely slowly).

The battleship would probably get more guns, but costs more. Perhaps they get a different secondary (or not)?

VolteMetalic 11:49, February 22, 2012 (UTC): Agree. The anti-material rifles are large, so he needs time to deploy and undeploy. For their "transit speed", not sure, hmm...

Agree. Probably 3 turrets, each with 2 guns, and as it is larger, it costs more. For Secondary, I dont know. Decoy Buoy is handy... maybe large scale smokescreen? :D For Heroic, Vulcan Cannons are fine for it as well.

Hazza-the-Fox 13:21, February 22, 2012 (UTC) I thought of another possibility- perhaps he deploys lying down with a bipod- but can only aim 90 degrees? That might offset the need for mobility restraints.

Battleship sounds good (perhaps the 3rd turret is a rear turret)? All those special abilities sound good- definitely a defensive function is best. Agree with heroic.

VolteMetalic 09:09, February 23, 2012 (UTC): He will definitely have to lay, but he can turn on the ground still :)

Of course third turret is on rear :D So maybe this smokescreen? :D

Hazza-the-Fox 13:00, February 23, 2012 (UTC) Very good point (you know- perhaps he actually takes a moment to pivot around on the ground- like Grand Cannon does)?

Awesome- and I'd agree that could be interesting for a boat to put out a smokescreen!

VolteMetalic 10:04, March 8, 2012 (UTC): Yeah, that could work :)

Hehe :D Fine than! The Battleship will have three triple-barreled (or just double-barreled?) turrets, and some small launchers for the great smokecreen :) Or, current US Army has mounted on Humvees a "smoke generators". I cant remember right now exactly the precise name, but it cant be hard to find :) Maybe thsi can be mounted on the Battleship, to produce the smokescreen?

Hazza-the-Fox 08:44, March 9, 2012 (UTC) Hmmm- depends how much we want this ship to fire! (come to think of it- tripple barreled x 3 would be a considerable area-effect attack unit firing 9 shells)- something to keep in mind. Definitely more than one barrel per gun though. Smokescreen generators is a possibility too.

Poland

Hazza-the-Fox 00:38, February 21, 2012 (UTC) A tough one again- Poland gets the Crazy Ivan- who can sabotage enemy bases, plant mines, defend, and beef up the base's defenses.

I think therefore, the only thing left to consider is some kind of support unit of some sort???

VolteMetalic 14:15, February 21, 2012 (UTC): Yeah, but what?

Hazza-the-Fox 06:11, February 22, 2012 (UTC) No idea- so I think the first things to consider are what it should NOT be;

• A splash-attack unit
• Short-ranged

I think, what we need is a light speedy unit with fairly long-range but a light attack of some sort- as it would give Poland a nice mobility advantage, long-range support, while retaining the Crazy Ivan as its most significant unit.

VolteMetalic 11:49, February 22, 2012 (UTC): Maybe that mortar bike? :D

Hazza-the-Fox 13:17, February 22, 2012 (UTC) I was thinking that actually! In fact, I was even thinking of giving them a 'molotov' bike when I thought of the German bike;

BUT- there is a big drawback- a mortar or grenade unit (especially a speedy one) does risk easily outshining Crazy Ivan's grenade-throwing ability; which admittedly is only one fifth of his overall list of uses though;

If not, our alternatives are some kind of 'dragoon' sniper bike or 'galloper' jeep (some kind of speedy unit with a nice medium-long-ranged bullet weapon for some light long-range skirmishing)

It depends if we want to get the maximum exclusiveness out of Ivan's abilities or not ;)

(the theory that if players only get grenades out of Ivan, they'd be more tempted to make Ivans, and have a higher chance of using their other abilites- or using Ivans for more situations)

VolteMetalic 09:09, February 23, 2012 (UTC): Hmm... a bikes with by-cars, and armed with a RPG? :D

Hazza-the-Fox 13:06, February 23, 2012 (UTC) hmm, tough call.... gonna have to think about it;

Ultimatley, I definitely lean to fast, long-ranged, and able to hit singular targets only (and probably fires either very scarcely and hits fairly hard (like an RPG or some kind of ultra-heavy rifle/light cannonette)- or fires frequently but does light damage (a more long-range machinegun- or a drastically scaled-up heavy assault rifle mounted on a chassis).

As the perfect compliment to a close-range heavy-hitting unit is a longer-ranged skirmisher;

Hazza-the-Fox 12:58, March 5, 2012 (UTC) Yep, thought long and hard about Poland, and I've figured they should get a speedy long-ranged auto-cannon-toting vehicle for general skirmish; either

1. A fast, speedy spider-mech with a light cannon (obviously, the Werewolf would be heavier)
2. An armored car- sorta like the Otter (FUG) Scout Car (strangely, Soviets have no form of combat armored car at all yet (not counting the Flak Raider APC)- plus, the Otter is amphibious!)

No idea on secondary- I thought a funny idea would be a 'Man-cannon' that actually launches and parachutes in terror drones (perhaps it can garrison them in back?) I dunno- might be better served on another unit, keep in mind;

VolteMetalic 09:57, March 6, 2012 (UTC): I think a speedy light spider-mech with the light cannon :)

And for the Mancannon, Bullfrog in RA3 has the exact same Secondary :)

Hazza-the-Fox 11:08, March 6, 2012 (UTC) Cool- spider it is (it actually makes more sense with its gun too) ;)

Yeah, I knew that- it is admittedly a very good secondary- but it seems a bit too comical for my tastes as it is.

On that note, what should the secondary be? Non-lethal jumping? Or maybe something new

VolteMetalic 10:06, March 8, 2012 (UTC): Something new for sure, but question is what.

Hazza-the-Fox 08:42, March 9, 2012 (UTC) Hmmmm- I reckon I might have a few ideas for this mech (I think I might call it the Stalker, Roach or even Hussar)

The tricky part is that there aren't really that many things it would do as a speedy harasser and decoy; so process of elimination:

Firstly, whatever it is I think should be something technologically very simple- being that it is a small vehicle and can't be expected to be packing anything tremendous (it stands about 3m tall- but its chassis is probably half the surface area of a humvee)- possibly something that uses its small size to a natural advantage somehow.

• Perhaps, it fires from its gun some kind of flare that might somehow prevent the units from attacking your Ivans- possibly something that causes all units to treat your operatives like a structure would under Alarm Bypass?
• Self-repair "down-state" could be something (accentuates itself as a sophisticated mech- and also as a strong hit-and-run option). However, if we leave this feature OUT, it gives the engineer something to do and more strongly anchors this unit as a hit-and-run needing a 'home-base' to retreat to (including a site with some deployed engineers to do some field repairs).
• Explosives, area-effect attacks and traps are jobs the Ivan fills already (it could plant a single mine or trap- a deliberate inferior version to the Ivan to compensate for its higher mobility)
• A single-shot attack (anti-infantry railgun?) is another- though it may be better filled by larger units- but its a possibility. I'm giving this mech a pretty long gun on its nose, so it isn't physically too unusual (though its overall tiny size for carrying the spare batteries might be).
• A small SAM rack? It's a rather small cheap unit- and the Soviets do already have flak troopers and Flak Raiders.
• Self-destruct has been done enough I think. Besides, this unit gives a better vibe as the unit that just won't die ;)

Oslo Group

Hazza-the-Fox 00:38, February 21, 2012 (UTC) They get the Chrono Relay Vehicle- which teleports targetable exploding bombs at extreme distances, and I think releases some kind of field around itself for protection when cornered (or simply teleports).

I think to compliment this, perhaps the 'trap planter' infantry could actually be Oslo (as the Chrono Relay definitely needs a trapper more than France's Grand Cannon does- which would mean the Paratrooper would need a new 'deploy' function. That aside, not sure what this guy should do

VolteMetalic 14:15, February 21, 2012 (UTC): Paratrooper's bombs are meant to serve agaisnt structures, or during ambushes, not to plant a minefield, as you will need to set the mines yourself, and simply you cant oversee the minefield. So there can be a sapper unit for Oslo. But somehow I think that Oslo would ave something else... Maybe something like Cryo Legionnaire from RA3 Uprising? Or heavy tank with some high-tech to be a counterpart to Ukraine's siege tank and Devastator? But to be different than Nashorn.

Hazza-the-Fox 06:29, February 22, 2012 (UTC) THose are options worth exploring too (noting that Cryo being a nice touch to the mostly Nordic countries); What we have so far with Oslo:

• Chrono Relay teleporting 'decoy bombs' at very long ranges, and generating some field around self as emergency defense ( think it might have been some kind of unit-displacement/concealment option).
• Regular Chrono-Legionairres that simultaneously freeze and erase units at close-range, and teleports self.

So I think that long-range and short-range direct-attack (via Chrono) are already good- but we still have plenty of area-effect Chrono attacks worth exploring if we want to go that direction. One possible idea is an area-effect Chrono-attack that actually causes all caught inside to temporarily 'disappear' for a moment (that could alternately be a Chronosphere replacement- completely erases units for the 30 seconds- and if you don't pick a new destination before then they simply re-appear where they left off). Or simply leaves them in a state of vulnerable 'warp' (that would be WAY more powerful though)

I was throwing this idea, along with the interesting dichotomy of a hunter/'woodsman'/Simo-Haya-homage guerilla soldier that is otherwise a huge contrast to the insulated lab-tech stuff- but might plant traps of the Chrono-type...

VolteMetalic 11:49, February 22, 2012 (UTC): Yeah, Cryo Tank may be an interesting thing, something like Flame Tank :D

I dont know. Chrono is also straight forward technology, which just teleport you, or erase you, or warp you. Thought Simo-Hayama-homage would be great, maybe it can be named after him, Hayama Cryo Tank :D

Hazza-the-Fox 13:19, February 22, 2012 (UTC) THere is a problem with Cryo in that it sounds a bit like the 'freeze' that Chrono-Erase (or warp) does (on top of other functions). So we'd need to consider how it differentiates from these (or improves upon these).

VolteMetalic 09:09, February 23, 2012 (UTC): Cryo freezes enemy to solid ice, which can be shattered by any sort of attack. "chrono-freeze" needs time to destroy a unit, to eradicate it from this reality.

Hazza-the-Fox 13:11, February 23, 2012 (UTC) Could work- perhaps the freeze is temporary- and the enemies retain their full hitpoints but simply cannot move or attack (especially vehicles- probably not organic units as freezing tends to be fatal).

I still reckon it should actually come in the form of a trap planted by an infantry unit (a large cannister of some kind of cryogenic fluid that is remote-detonated)- as it would mean that all the 'freeze' attacks are split between the decoy bombs, the direct-attack legionairre, and planted booby-traps- which leaves a free 'normal' attack still to consider (which could be a sniper that fires bullets filled with small doses of cryogenic that slows the target (or kills the target and slows his comrades- a freezing "virus" of sorts).

The Mystery Defenses

Hazza-the-Fox 22:47, December 19, 2011 (UTC) Ok, so here we discuss these mystery defenses.

The Middle Defenses

Hazza-the-Fox 22:47, December 19, 2011 (UTC) Ok, so this section is about the need for a defense structure that fills in the need for some medium-light defense. I'll explain.

1. At the start, players get infantry-dependent defenses that merely provide cover for your infantry weapons, and are otherwise empty shells.
2. Players get an AA defense from the Depot
3. -
4. Prism Tower/Tesla Coil- deadly to all targets, but very slow (as well as expensive)
5. Mega national defenses

As you can see, there is absolutely no ground defense at all beyound your combat units' own weapons, and the top-end defenses.

At the moment we are lacking a sentry gun/Defender VX tier defense. However, because the top-end defenses are generally good against vehicles and infantry alike- any specialist defenses would prove slightly redundant against these, and given the preference of infantry, we don't want a specialist anti-infantry defense either.

SO I reckon, the obvious course of action is something that is moderately and generally effective against infantry AND vehicles, does light damage but has a fair rate of fire, long-ish range (something like the M2 Bradley's gun). Providing slightly suppressive cover fire for both your slow-firing Prism/Tesla towers, heavy-hitting tanks, and also for your faster-firing but lighter rifle infantry.

The precise function of these depends on what roles the bunker-type structures fill, as well as the AA structures.

VolteMetalic 19:02, December 20, 2011 (UTC): I dont know...

Hazza-the-Fox 00:03, December 21, 2011 (UTC) It's definitely a good idea- as neither side has any need for heavy defenses, their infantry units will provide the light defenses- but they lack something to support their other weapons and heavy defenses alike.

I think we'd also need to think of what kind of attacks each side would deliver normally, and what they'd be missing.

VolteMetalic 12:42, December 21, 2011 (UTC): Hmmm?

Hazza-the-Fox 23:02, December 21, 2011 (UTC) Well, for Soviets, our typical ground defensive options (units that can defend without running a great distance before returning fire) are the conscript, Flak Trooper (all-purpose very-light mortar), Mauler (medium-heavy cannon), possibly a Devestator (heavy twin howitzer), the Psicorps, and the Tesla Coil; Which leaves one of the two attacks from the Flak (which would either assume the medium-defense role itself with direct-shot, or the long-range group-softener with its shrapnel-shower airburst mode). The first option will leave us with a fairly complete defensive roundup- while the second requires another, separate structure.

Allies get the Marine, Guardian (medium but very slow anti-tank), Kodiak (heavy cannon), Jager (sniper rifle), Sonic Tank, Mars (innaccurate area-effect volleys), and the Prism Tower. In their case, they would need either for the 'multigunner' defense to fulfill a light specialist turret role- or for some new defensive tower to employ a general-purpose semi-suppressive medium weapon (like the explosive flechette gun I mentioned).

VolteMetalic 11:07, December 22, 2011 (UTC): Errr... I think that I forgot the point :D

Hazza-the-Fox 22:46, December 22, 2011 (UTC) The point is that we have plenty of light support fire (infantry) and slow ultra-heavy shots (tanks, Prism/Tesla, Guardian)- and what we need is something medium-hitting, that is equally effective against infantry and tanks (although slightly moreso infantry).

Our options are the Flak Cannon immediately fills this role with direct-shot, or it uses the airburst cluster-bomb shot and another light structure must fill its place; and ditto for Allies- their multigun pillbox could fill this role- or they would need that fletchette gun I mentioned.

VolteMetalic 10:58, December 23, 2011 (UTC): Sorry, but you are making it more and more confusing to me.

Hazza-the-Fox 22:43, December 23, 2011 (UTC) Basically, almost all of our defenses (and units) are mostly the type to shoot heavy rounds (but take ages to reload); OR, fire light machineguns and infantry weapons that do small damage but shoot fairly frequently.

We need something that has both damage AND rate of fire to be roughly between these two extremes, and is somewhat useful against all targets. So it fires more slowly than the infantry weapons, but a lot more frequently than the Prism Tower or Mauler Tank. And its damage per shot is between the infantry and Prism Tower too.

So far, we've got the Flak to fulfill this role (although it can afford to shoot slower, and simply act as a light AT turret whose shots do AP splash to infantry). But we need one for the Allies (which is why I reckomend the AT turret being more like an extremely beefed up and slightly slowed-down M2 Bradley-type gun- or that explosive-tipped fletchette gun as a more exotic option). As the Allies in particularly are even more heavily polarized between slow-shooting heavy-caliber units (Kodiak, Mars, Sonic, Prism) and machineguns.

VolteMetalic 00:27, December 24, 2011 (UTC): Aha! Now I understand! :D Yeah, that could work well! And, Bradley has a "Bushmaster" autocannon

Hazza-the-Fox 13:12, December 24, 2011 (UTC) Cool- yeah, something like that! I was thinking the gun started to sacrifice ROF for heavier rounds, but was still managing to *just* keep an automatic fire-mechanism

VolteMetalic 10:33, December 25, 2011 (UTC): Thats up to you, I will be fine with heavy cannon or rapid-firing cannon.

Hazza-the-Fox 13:35, December 25, 2011 (UTC) Actually, I was aiming for half-way in between; It fires heavy rounds- but are still *just* light enough to be mechanically loaded. About 2 shots per second, and each is fairly serious (slower ROF than the Centurion (and no splash), but much more damage)

VolteMetalic 14:38, December 26, 2011 (UTC): And there would be a short reload time, like it can quickly fire from a "magazine"... 4 shots, and than for few seconds reload another magazine.

Hazza-the-Fox 22:31, December 27, 2011 (UTC) That would work nicely!!!

VolteMetalic 13:07, December 28, 2011 (UTC): Fine than :D

Hazza-the-Fox 03:02, December 31, 2011 (UTC) Ok, I think (as I said in Atlas section) that the name 'turret' is proving very hard to follow- and I think we should call it a 'Ripper' turret or something distinctive.

Also, I think we aught to cover a few last details of footprinting with these structures;

"Turret" (aka Ripper) is a short 1x1

Flak Cannon lowers to quite a long gun- but we have the choice of 1x1 or 2x2 (noting that Soviets bunkers would be 2x2 themselves, and the Tesla coil is a lot fatter than previous versions too).

Now, that darned Patriot. So far, the Soviets have a large bunker, Allies have a singular pillbox, and the Patriot is AA only. Either it can get a 1x1 and be AA only, or it can be a 1x1 mounted on a 2x2 footprint, with some odd sandbag details to imply that it boosts infantry armor (which would pose a nice dilemma of putting an AA-only structure outside the walls, to take advantage of the armor-boosted infantry). Unlike the bunker or pillbox, the infantry cannot actually go inside, and can actually be shot at- they simply get more defense when they are standing near the turret.

Finally, that mortar for the Soviets; a short squat, fat gun, that may-or-may-not be able to aim 360 (or just 90) degrees, and can fire either clusterbombs, radiation cannisters, or quite nicely- BOTH. (radiation simply leaves a small but persistent patch on the ground, hitting fewer enemies (hurting much more) but creating a toxic barrier to rushers- while the clusterbomb would lightly sprinkle a larger group with a lot of nasty stuff. And what kind of footprint should it stand on? (note that a 2x2 makeshift gun encampment would allow a lot of nice details of toxic barrels etc lying around the gun, and also prove a VERY good way to handicap it by virtue of its larger size).

VolteMetalic 12:19, December 31, 2011 (UTC): Ripper... hmm, it would be something else... Cannon Turret? :P

The sizes of the defenses.

• Allies
  • Pillbox - 1×1
  • The turret - 1×1
  • Patriot - 1×1 (You know my opinion on this, and placing an AA-only defense to the first line seems to me quite stupid, especially outside the walls of your base)
  • Prism Tower - 1×1
  • Grand Cannon - 2×2
• Soviets
  • Battle Bunker - 2×2
  • Flak Cannon - 1×1
  • The mortar - 1×1 (They would be pretty weak)
  • Tesla Coil - 1×1
  • Fallout Fort - 2×2

Hazza-the-Fox 08:16, January 1, 2012 (UTC) Cannon turret might get that same confusion in discussions- perhaps "Sentry Cannon" (bigger than a sentry gun, but similar role- and impossible to confuse with other units and weapons).

Generally agree;

Patriot- true, but your infantry will need to be defending from in front of the walls (as will your tanks), so giving a vague armor boost for the infantry who couldn't be put into Pillboxes could encourage players to risk it and give the right amount of defensive edge to more extreme attackers, possibly (but far inferior to the protection of actually being inside Battle Bunkers, so it's perfect!). Plus it gives a good excuse for a 2x2 allied defense to offset the Soviet ones. But if you insist on a normal defense.... :P

The Mortar- I think, if it were 2x2, but only 90 degree, it might reinforce the same kind of disadvantage. Also note, the Mortar itself is small (1x1) but is positioned on a broader fortified base (sandbags/barricades, gunners/loaders nearby, and catriges and cannisters)- compared to the Grand Cannon, where turret and its base fill virtually the entire space- and the gun sticks out further than this still. I'll do some sketches for that, in various possible forms.

Another note for the Grand Cannon- should it shoot over walls?

Fallout Fort- depends on design- 4x4 would make a nice thick tower/keep-type structure (with the bunker parts and 'turret' parts simply higher tiers), while 3x3 might imply a small compound castle.

VolteMetalic 14:53, January 1, 2012 (UTC): Hmmm... Patriot simply dont looks like a "hold-the-line" structure, even with the sandbangs and whatever you will put there.

Mortar... that could work, bu still i think for it a 90° limit dont fits. Why it cant turn, when it will be a carry-able mortar in the bunker compount? :)

Grand Cannon, yes it can fire over walls.

Falliut Fort, I choose 2×2 to be as a large defense, but since Battle Bunker is large like this too, I guess 3×3 could work.

Hazza-the-Fox 23:25, January 1, 2012 (UTC) If you reckon- I'll put two illustrations up, but for now assume its 1x1

Mortar- I was thinking of some large mechanical mortar on one of those towed frames- but it could be on a turret instead, with the barricades surrounding it.

Grand Cannon- cool

Fallout Fort- cool- I'm getting some good designs going (at the moment, a 2x2, though I could wrap it in further barricades, discarded junk, sandbacks at its base to make a 3x3).

VolteMetalic 08:48, January 2, 2012 (UTC): Mortar- I had more in mind a heavy mortar, which can be packed by the infnatry, simply like Centurion's GMG :) But there you cant pack it up, only that it isnt fixed weapon in the structure, to make it look that it is quickly set up, not that by it looks it takes days to make, but more like hours :)

Hazza-the-Fox 08:30, January 3, 2012 (UTC) I was thinking of something pretty close- but a little bigger- something that might have been small enough to be unloaded off a supply truck, but far too heavy to actually fire from a vehicle (hence why these things are only in encampments and not being hauled around by vehicles). Design wise, I was thinking of a really short, fat gun (sorta like a miniature version of a Karl Gerat- or with one of those segmented barrels like the China Nuke cannon- only a lot smaller) Basically a mortar that including its base and support frames, is slightly larger than a whole person..

VolteMetalic 13:34, January 3, 2012 (UTC): Hmm... that also sounds fine. Go with it :)

Hazza-the-Fox 23:36, January 3, 2012 (UTC) Cool- by the way I've recreated the "Pillbox" section in the Allies page, as well as a few other sections (including the Vietkong/Paratrooper discussion).

VolteMetalic 12:34, January 4, 2012 (UTC): Ok :)

The 'Multigun' and Bunker dilemma

Hazza-the-Fox 22:47, December 19, 2011 (UTC) Here is the multi-gun/bunker dillemma topic.

These serve as pre-reactor defenses (like in Yuri's Revenge)- ideally, harmless without an infantry unit inside them. By being available at the start of the game, it gives the player something meaningful to do while waiting for the basic structures to come online. Also, if they were delivered nanocore style (Albiet by a vehicle that is extremely slow moving when travelling further from base), the open up the option to act as forward defenses, ambush defenses, chokepoints, aside from turtling alone (Which they are also good at).

As it is, both side SHOULD get some variation of this kind of structure. And these variations are a standard bunker (stores soldiers like the Battle Fortress does, and accomodates a few special abilities from non-combat units), and a 'multigun' defense (keeping in mind, that a stationary structure would feasibly have a completely new set of functions than a mobile armored car- and these could be heavily geared for new defensive roles- and thus is not redundant). As I said before, unlike Red Alert 3, this mod has a LOT of non-combatative and abstract-function units that could potentially offer a wider range of perks by being garrisoned).

Now, the question is, do both sides get nearly identical bunkers (with variation of capacity, and what functions they can get out of their units/ what secondary features they contain, etc)-

-and if so, should the multi-gun instead be the Patriot (yes it is like Red Alert 3, but all in all it would be equally sensible, as the patriot could potentially not do anything else, while the Flak Cannon has a ground attack- yet at the same time, any ground attack by the patriot would be redundant against the Mars.

VolteMetalic 19:02, December 20, 2011 (UTC): I would more go with the nearly identical bunkers. The multigunner turret, especially how you suggest it (with Patriot as fdefault) pretty much identical to RA3, and already there is a lot of this.

For the Patriot, maybe I can solve it. When it will be unlocked by Depot (T1), it will be redundant as there are no aircrafts in T1. Flak Cannon can stay, as it can attack ground too. So, the Patriot may be moved to T2, and the tank gun could be moved on its place of Depot-defense. The toxic mortar could stay on T2, and Patriot will be strictly AA.

Hazza-the-Fox 00:00, December 21, 2011 (UTC)

I've thought about it and I reckon the best method is that for the Allied Pillbox- instead of a bunker, they should get a completely un-manned multigunner platform as the starting defense opposite the Soviet Battle Bunker (it needs a soldier inside before it does anything), and the Patriot should have an 'infantry cover' (firebase style) which gives an armour bonus (and immunity to being trampled by enemy tanks), but does not actually stop the soldiers getting hit if specifically targeted to be shot at. This would give many benefits- a unique corresponding defense to the Soviet Bunker, a maximum application of non-combatative units for unique defensive roles, an anti-ground purpose for the Patriot, and would also actually encourage players to build these things outside the walls (as the infantry inside generally cannot shoot past walls).

As it is, if we don't do that, we wouldn't get any of these benefits, and we'd have more identical bunkers, and the Allies gets the only defense that can't protect itself against ground.

The Soviet Battle Bunker does not give modified versions of their infantry's attacks, but does allow some non-combat units to perform some unique functions to tempt players to put them in instead of strictly combat infantry.

On that note, I think definitely both the Bunker and Pillbox, along with both AA-capable defenses, should be built by 'nanocore style' like most structures to help encourage and allow players to try different defensive approaches other than strictly turtling behind the walls.

As for tech tree- no harm in having the AA defenses available before the aircraft are, even if they won't be attacking anything for a while- as it ultimately gives players a chance to set up a defense.

An another note, partly out of artistic limitations, something to consider for the Flak gun. If it were to use the "Shrapnel Shower" attack, it would only need to be pointing upwards at all times- meaning the breech is pointing down, rather than backwards, allowing a single soldier to be seated directly behind it. If it were to attack forward like a cannon against ground targets, it would need to angle both up and down. Also, this would place the breech facing backwards, meaning the operators would need to be seated on the sides. So it would be a two-man gun, with a forward shield. Keep in mind, this would also be the layout for the Grand Cannon (only its front shield is an angular half-turret, rather than a single plate-shield. They'd both look somewhat different, but the discrepancy in appearance would be much higher if the Flak gun had a shrapnel shower mode. I've got a concept for the Grand Cannon, and I'll demonstrate concepts of both versions of Flak Cannons anyway.

VolteMetalic 12:42, December 21, 2011 (UTC): ... Sometimes I am asking myself why I even talk, when you dont listen.

On one side, you are agaisnt patriot, and on other, you say it would stay where it is. I really hate the Multigunner Turret because of its low efficiency and need of many of them to work properly. It will be more useful to make Wildcats for mobile defense.

We already decided that Soviet Battle Bunker will house the non-combat infantry, but they will be doing compltetly nothing, like in normal structures.

The nanocore system for defenses is very tricky, as you can literally make a defense in the enemy's gate. In some cases it can ruin the enemy's expansion, or when used agaisnt you, your expansion.

To spray ground enemy with the Flak Cannon, you will need to drastically decrease the charge used in the shells, and with it its effectiveness will be gone. Along with it, shrapnels arent effective against vehicles, only agaisnt infantries, especially with the low velocity.

Hazza-the-Fox 22:50, December 21, 2011 (UTC) That's easy- the defenses would be somewhat stronger than what the Wildcats can do (each configuration being about as strong as a light specialist defense each). And of course, the other units would be able to deliver some vital boosts for the structure, or nearby units and structures.

The point with the other units being able to enter the bunker is that they should actually do some useful non-attack function, so there are more options to players. Thus, an engineer providing auto-repair to the bunker (or other structures) for free, a scout spotting for other structures (rather than just infantry), a spy probably providing some other kind of bonus, etc- helps broaden the options, and players can choose if they'd rather fill their bunkers with Guardians at the expense of other bonuses, or something else.

As I said, our options are either to

1. Use a multigun pillbox for opening defense (and possibly middle defense- with broad applications) and use the Patriot as a firebase for larger garrisons

1. twin bunkers for both sides and a multigun patriot (which is like RA3- but still better than a standard patriot),

1. or we just have twin bunkers and an AA that can only be used for AA.

The first option would mean that Allies would have their own multi-garrison structure, multigun-pillbox, a ground-useful AA structure and middle-defense structure all in one go (being mixed between two structures), while being distinctly different enough to the Soviets.

Yep- I know about the nanocores- I think the simplest method is that the Construction yard's construction radius also has a 'nanocore vehicle accelerator' radius- any 'nanocore' constructor vehicles nearby can move quite quickly- but further away they are laboriously slow (and fragile). Thus, althoguh they could possibly be sent out to the enemy's door or guarding the resources, it requires quite some effort. The way it should be.

Flak shells: not necessarily, a large piece of metal falling from a quarter mile in height adds a lot of concussive and penetrative force! And that aside, the shells could be designed to break up into multiple shaped-charges (that technology would be easily available) or even simply that the shells are mini-cluster bombs.

VolteMetalic 11:07, December 22, 2011 (UTC): Hmm... lets make a round up.

ALLIES

• Multigunner Pillbox - T1 - Can fill many tasks (and the sensor array with presence of Scout renders redundant). As it is pillbox, it would instead have only ground-only attacks, and like the pillboxes with option of firing only into one direction (90°). Just to list few.
  • Marine/Conscript - Machine gun
  • Guardian - AT missile launcher
  • Jager - "Sniper cannon"
  • Tesla Trooper - Tesla gun
• AT Gun Turret - T1 - A light AT turret, armed with a gun
• Patriot SAM Launcher - T2 - AA missile launcher
• Prism Tower - T3 - Long-range defense

SOVIETS

• Battle Bunker - T1 - Bunker for 5 infnatry, has machine gun
• Flak Cannon - T1 - Cannon with option of firing into air and ground
• Toxin Mortar - T2 - You forgot this one. A mortar pit which bombards enemies with shells, which spreads radiation or toxic cloud
• Tesla Coil - T3 - Strong defense

That will dont make sense, tat a truck will move quickly around base, and than like a snail.

Well, it will dont be flak than :) The thing is that it also needs the velocity of the entire shell for shrapnels to be more devastating. And, when Germans were using their FlaKs on tanks,they were firing "directly" on them, not like a mortar. And, that reminds me, you completely forgot the Soviet mortar, it will took its job. And for the cannon, it can be still controlled by one guy, why he cant sit beside the gun?

Hazza-the-Fox 01:57, December 23, 2011 (UTC) Those could work; I'll put all the different unit discussions in their categories

ALLIES-

• Agree on the 90 degree Pillbox (and it's actually easier to make a good concept for)

• though I definitely think the PAtriot should still get a firebase surrounding still (infantry don't 'truly' garrison, they simply get a large defense bonus from being positioned there- obviously it would be using safety measures so the surrounding infantry are not in danger :P) This would make the Patriot potentially useful against ground- but still largely an AA investment as it needs ground units to work. Also, I'd put it in the same tier as the Flak gun- as after all, allowing the player to set up an early welcome party for aircraft is never a bad thing.

• I could probably work with the AT turret too. On a side note, I'll be releasing some Grand Cannon and Flak Cannon pics, so you may want to keep in mind how to differentiate the design (though I think the easiest method is that one of the three guns lacks any shielding (probably the Flak), the other has a forward-shield but clear deck (probably Grand Cannon), and the remaining one has a more 'tank turret armor' (AT Turret). All that's left is to determine its ROF and damage output (particularly against infantry). Just as I said that I'm starting to think of a good design..
• Good call on making Prism Tower T3- I actually think that is perfect (I was worrying that perhaps the Prism Tower and Tesla Coil would pose too easy an obstacle for the double-cost tanks). But this will keep them nicely handicapped without making them costly- simply their delay in development will ensure that a defender will never be able to make quite enough of these to keep up with the enemy's attack forces, without assistance from other defenders.

SOVIETS-

• Bunker; I think we should make the machinegun an early upgrade (but with some potency when it is installed)- as being a starting defense, acting as an empty dud without infantry at that early point in the game is a nice starting handicap- while quickly progressing into a defense that can hold its own a nice bonus. Also, it should still have some 'special' functions for its own non-combat units (scouts inside extend the range and ROF of all soldiers posted inside- to simulate him acting as a 'spotter' for his fellow garrisoned comrades- and enhancing the distance the bunker can attack from). Naturally, this is a larger-sized defense (RA2 Bunker/G:ZH China Bunker- size).
• Flak sounds good. And I reckon it would definitely be better filling the direct-fire role, now that I think about it- which solves the medium-defense dilemma for the Soviets.
• Toxin mortar- I was thinking perhaps this could be the clusterbomb-airburst mortar (rather than the flak cannon). This is definitely something to think about (including alt fire modes).
• Ditto on Tesla Coil (as with Prism Tower)- I forgot to mention another possibly enhancing attribute (possibly from the T4 Tesla Upgrade, via the Tesla Reactor- a mild rate-of-fire increase? And on another note still- I think I actually like the name "T4 Tesla Systems" as the upgrade's official name!

Finally, delivery trucks/ Constructors/ (the substitute for nanocores) ground-speed does actually make a lot of sense when you think about it.The drivers might decide that they can afford to drive quickly inside the base, but outside decide to proceed with more caution, avoiding bumps and potholes, trying to keep an eye out for ambushes, etc. The difference may well be purely psychological in instinctive caution!

VolteMetalic 10:58, December 23, 2011 (UTC): If there will be ambush, you will dont move like a snail, but hit the gas to quickly escape :) It will dont looks just to other defenses.

ALLIES

• And... maybe just the ground-only attack? That Guardians or Flak Troopers cant fire agaisnt aerial targets?
• Well, yeah, when I look on RA3 it was like this, but only with Flak Cannon. Multigunner Turret could fire with its default missile launcher to both air and ground, and VZ Turret could switch between ground-guns and air-missiles. Flak Cannon was the only one who is just agaisnt air. So I think Patriot may be placed as T2, but with no firebase ports, I hated them, and they cant be made as you say, if I understad it correctly
• Why not make them both turret-like? Grand Cannon is after all 2×2 structure, while the turret (that would be its name! Turret!) just 1×1. And when you will make the two with different turrets, it could work!

SOVIETS

• Why you must make things more complicated? :D An upgrade to add JUST one thing, that is... heh :P It will work fine as starting thing of the bunker. And the garrison, why it cant be like normal garrison, where all non-combat infantry will just sit inside while others fight? Scout, that could work,because he is "comabt infantry", he ahs the pistol afterall, the increased fire range could work :)
• You mean that it can bombard the area with the clusterbomb-like shells?
• Increased rate of fire by use of Tesla Reactor isnt possible. The time how quickly the coil can shoot is determined by its capacitors, not how many power is send to it. I know this, I studied this 4 years 8) The name... that should work.

Hazza-the-Fox 23:19, December 23, 2011 (UTC) I'm sure a lot of people would do that in army logistics- (proceed with caution)- besides, they'd be looking for terrain problems, scanning the landscape and such to avoid getting their trucks stuck with vital equipment (of course, if it were a catapillar vehicle they wouldn't worry about this).

ALLIES

• Yep- definitely only ground-attack. Would better solidify the AA structures.
• Hmmm- what about an armor boost to nearby infantry? I just feel that it needs something to give it more use.
• That could work. Keep in mind, we still need a medium damage+ROF defense; so if your turret does lighter damage, I reckon we should give it higher ROF than a tank.

SOVIETS

• Because complicating it with extra bonuses makes it more fun! And it also helps players better defend against different kinds of threats (after all, a bunker on the front would expect an all-out assault, while a bunker near the back might be expecting a sneak attack from spies or agents- and would be better stocked with dogs- while a bunker deep inside the base would be trying to stop enemy engineers and spies- but could benefit by having a garrisoned engineer slow-repair nearby structures that got damaged in an airstrike! Thus, it makes this humble defense quite versatile! Also, what should we do about Flak Troopers inside? Should they shoot air or not? (having them not would probable encourage players to invest more in other infantry to fill bunkers while keeping the Flakkers outside- and of course, they'd still be firing their mortar shots as support.
• Yep!
• No probs- and that is very interesting! And T4 it is!

VolteMetalic 00:25, December 24, 2011 (UTC): Not into the extend that running beside the truck will be faster And, when the truck will be riding on the street of the city, moving with the speed of turtle will look totally weird :P The defenses should be just build by the old-fashion way, directly on the spot. It will amke more sense as "defense".

ALLIES

• Hmmm... it wont make sense that a SAM will give a bonus to infantry in defense, but something may be added to it, something area-affecting.
• Yead, an increased rate of fire with exchange for strength could be fine.

SOVIETS

• You were the one who literally bored me to nod for Allied Multigunner, because it was too similat to Battle Bunker, and now you try to make Battle Bunker into Soviet multigunner? :) Because thats how it looks. It is a normal bunker, with no changing configurations. The guys inside uses the weapons they carry, so these which dont has any cant do anything. And, there is already too many repairing units on Soviet side, you are making them more redundant, or make another untis redudant.

Hazza-the-Fox 13:10, December 24, 2011 (UTC) He's just being super-cautious in the city! All those possible sniper spots...

And defenses would simply be a matter of forward-defenses to be built by delivery (bunkers and AA), and strict base defenses built by radius (Prism, Walls).

ALLIES

• I was just thinking that the SAM's encampment would be surrounded by sandbags and baricades and stuff, and the idea is the infantry are using them as cover (even though they are technically standing in front of them due to engine limitations). I reckon the only remaining option is to give the Patriot an upgrade to provide it with a few point-defense missiles to try to minimize the damage.
• Awesome- by the way, I reckon the turret should get an extra prefix in its name- just to distinguish it. Also, a few more considerations- being a turret is obvious, but what about it's base? Does it have a short-ish base (cannot shoot through walls), a wall-sized base (built into the wall corner pieces?) or a tall skinny base (shoots over walls). One thing we DEFINITELY want to keep in mind is that we would do best to have some of the defenses able to shoot from behind the walls (Prism/Tesla Towers, and mortars obviously), and some that must be positioned on the front (the bunkers, and also the Flak Cannon's abiltiy to shoot ground enemies- but NOT air). Gives a nice tactical handicap to defending in that the wall only covers the more expensive and fragile defenses.

SOVIETS

• Good points there. I think we should write a list of the Pillbox and Battle Bunker's garrisons (aiming that the Pillbox gives augmented base-enhancing functions from all infantry, while the Battle Bunker mostly accomodates its normal weapons and compliments the existing garrison);

ALLIED PILLBOX

• Scout- Listening Post/ watchtower/ Fire control tower (enhances fire of other nearby defenses, and extends sight range)
• Dog- Kennel- spawns guard dogs who attack any infantry that get close to the structure. Killing them results in a gradual free replacement.
• Marine/Conscript- Machinegun Pillbox.
• Guardian- AT Missile Launcher- simply Guardian missiles with a higher rate of fire (in salvos of 3 or 4- then it reloads much slower).
• Jager- Sniper Pillbox
• Spy- Probably a Gap generator that stealths nearby units/structures unless the enemy is close or the units are attacking?
• Engineer- slow-repairs nearby structures
• Chrono Legionairre- Chrono Gun (somewhat longer range?)
• M-COM (Sonic gun with a gap generator (but a really small one).
• -
• Flak trooper (multi-barreled AP Flak Mortar)
• Tesla Trooper (Tesla Tank's weapon- or possibly the sizzler ring)
• PsiCorps- Chaos
• Commissar- Propaganda Tower
• Pariah- ???
• Crazy Ivan (that minefield attack I mentioned?)
• Desolator (RAD gun with wider nuclear fallout splash)

SOVIET BATTLE BUNKER

• Dog- probably no function
• Scout- extends range and ROF of the bunker he is in
• Engineer- Repairs Bunker from inside
• Conscript- fires AK
• Flak Trooper- fires his anti-ground shots
• Tesla Trooper- fires his gun
• Spy- no function
• Pariah- no function
• Psicorps- ???
• Commissar- definitely would motivate people inside at the very least (they do more damage)
• Desolator- fires RAD gun
• Crazy Ivan- that minefield attack I mentioned?
• -
• All Allied attack units (Marine, Guardian, Chrono Legionairre, M-COM, Centurion, Jager) simply fire their primary (deploy) weapons from inside.

How about these?

VolteMetalic 10:31, December 25, 2011 (UTC): People will hate you :) Its not efficient to have them mobile, it actually makes the setting of the defense slower than normally.

ALLIES

• The turret... I dont know, probably on a block oc concrete (or in that fashion), simply like the old turrets in CnC1 and RA1 :)

SOVIETS

• Battle Bunker is just like any normal garrison, just 1×1 and more armored than other civilian garrisons :)

MULTIGUNNER PILLBOX

• Scout - Sounds fine
• Dog - I am little agaisnt it that dogs can enter the structures, but this could work
• Spy - Yeah, something like GAP could work
• Engineer - Ok
• Marine/Conscript - Machine gun
• -
• Guardian - Missile launcher
• Jager - Sniper cannon
• Centurion - Cannon (not direcly a grenade launcher), or autocannon
• Chrono-Legionnaire - Chrono gun
• M-COM - Sonic gun
• -
• Flak Trooper - Twin-barreled flak cannon, but mortar... thats...
• Tesla Trooper - Tesla gun
• PsiCorps - Chaos generator
• Commissar - Propaganda tower, which inspires all units nearby
• Desoaltor - RAD gun
• Crazy Ivan - This could be that mortar
• Pariah is not able to enter any garrison, or not able to garrison this, maybe also dogs

SOVIET BUNKER

• Dogs cant enter garrison (normal one)
• Engineer, spy and Pariah dont do anything inside
• Scout and Commissar both uses their pistols, but scout increases the sight range, and commissar increases the strength of all inside
• The rest uses their normal weapons (Crazy Ivan throws grenades or dynamite, and Centurion the grenade machine gun)

Hazza-the-Fox 13:26, December 25, 2011 (UTC) Bah! They'll get over it :P- it will only take an extra second inside the base, and the defenses like the Prism Tower/Tesla Coil will be auto-pop-up still.

Turret- so a short-ish concrete platform that cannot shoot over walls? I can work with that!

Battle Bunker- I'd go 2x2 (RA2 style)- fitting 5 guys in a 1x1 just looks wierd. Similarly, the Pillbox could have a broad 2x2 base, while the actual 'turret' is a 1x1 mounted in the center

MG PILLBOX

• M-COM- I reckon as a national, having his own bunker cloaked when not firing could be pretty cool (especially as it would be an almost 2000 dollar defense).
• Flak Trooper- don't forget when I mean 'mortar' I mean his standard ground attack- not some new proper siege mortar type attack
• Pariah- agreed- he shouldn't enter structures (on another note, I think he should C4 enemy structures with his suicide attack- he costs half as much as a Jager, but doesn't keep his life after making a detonation). Dogs, agreed in general, though I think an exception for the MG-PB would be quite economical.

BATTLE BUNKER

• Can't really disagree with most of these points
• I actually think the Ivan's minefield makes a kind of bizarre but perfect sense inside a bunker- rather than throwing grenades outside (slightly tricky to do) he discretely fortified it with a minefield when nobody was watching ;)
• Still not sure about the engineer- having him keep the structure alive from the inside could be quite handy...

VolteMetalic 14:38, December 26, 2011 (UTC): That will take it out the fun. Especially, when it is "defense" I will place it nearby

Great, you want to make a basic defense larger than the best defenses :) Bth bunker and MG (multigunner) turret in RA3 were 1×1, and it was fine :)

ALLIED PILLBOX

• Yeah, that sounds fine, with the holo-panels

  D Dont confuse me with this :D For me mortar is artillery :)

• Yeah? Economical?

BATTLE BUNKER

• Maybe, the minefield could be an additional thing when Ivan is inside, and dont forgot he is a pro in throwing grenades, it wont be a problem for him :)
• Hmm... yeah, maybe it can work out for engineer

Hazza-the-Fox 22:53, December 27, 2011 (UTC) Building- Nah- it will make it more fun that players need to be on their toes for more threats- the fact that with the 'slow outside base' factor in play, it actually requires a lot of effort to get the forward defense in place (or that the enemy player is strictly turtling and not venturing outside much- in which case s/he has none to blame but him/herself. Turtling should be just as tricky to pull off as any other attack (and same goes for forward bases).

Bah- The Battle Bunker and Tank Bunker in RA2 were all the size of the Grand Cannon and it was fine! Besides, I think as the Prism Tower and Tesla Coil are twice, almost three times the height of these bunkers, nobody will regard the bunkers as being the larger structures :P

That aside, taking up 4 spaces doesn't necessarily mean that the structures must actually fill the space. The Battle Bunker could be 1.7 squared, and same for the Pillbox.

PILLBOX

• Cool
• Heh- sorry bout that. The Flak Trooper technically *is* artillery- but reminder that he is just a very, very light artillery that tickles enemies from great range, rather than smashes them to bits. Somewhat more a support trooper.
• Yep- sometimes it's cheaper to stick the dog in the pilbox and let it respawn reincarnating duplicates of itself if a player is REALLY obsessed with keeping the spies out, or/but are up against an enemy who likes to snipe your base all the time. As the 'guard' dogs can't really move beyond a very short distance, the player using it is shortchanging him/herself in the defensive department overall, but saving a lot of money in replacement dogs until he can take out those pesky snipers. Besides, it'd be a fun way to apply dogs to an actual garrison structure.

BATTLE BUNKER

• That could work too (you are saying that he plants the 'actual' minefield, and attacks with grenades, rather than use his 'attack mines')- I was thinking that the simplest method was he could throw grenades out of civilian buildings and open-top vehicles, but the bunker would give him his 'attack mine' ability. Either could work, and both make perfect sense.
• Cool.

VolteMetalic 13:07, December 28, 2011 (UTC): Well, I can say you, that I will dont back off :)

Well, RA2 structures were little different than here by the thing of size :) I dont liked much how the Battle Bunker was large there. So our Battle Bunker would take 2×2, but dont fully take it, but Multigunner, that will be completely a waste of space, especially when you will need more of them then the Battle Bunkers in defense.

PILLBOX

• )

• We will see how others will look on it. :)

BATTLE BUNKER

• He is a pro, so he is able to throw the grenades accurately even through the small holes of the bunker, and lay the mines around :)

Hazza-the-Fox 01:17, December 29, 2011 (UTC) Battlebunker 4x4, pillbox 1x1 it is (though keep in mind, if the pillbox proves too potent, 4x4 would be the perfect handicap)

PILLBOX- also another thing to consider is how infantry visually augment it, which is also affected by if the defense faces one way or not. For example, the 'roofed' version of the old pillbox (or RA3 bunker, for that matter), would make sense as a 1-directional defense (gun slit on one side)- but would completely obscure the occupant inside. Similarly, an open-topped defense would show who/what is inside/on top, but would be harder to explain why they face one direction (though there are plenty of ways, fitting it into a single square is the tricky part- though I may have a few ideas.).

ALSO- keep in mind another design issue when depicting the guns that are fitted to the pillbox- differentiating the design of these guns against the other Allied defenses. There is also that general-purpose 'turret' defense to contend with for th infantry gun, as well as the Patriot to cast against the Guardian rockets. If both defenses are mounted on a 1x1, we will need to consider ways to visually differentiate them.

I may have thought of a possible method;

• Standard; a circular concrete barrier that wraps around empty space, with a raised corner (the back).
• Dog- some kind of kennel or cage planted in the middle of this 'ring'
• Scout- small metal 'tower' built on top with observation platform
• Marine: Concrete roof for the Pillbox, gun sticking out
• Guardian: fixed missile tubes, diagonally angled forward, with an optic pod attached (plenty of ways to depict this)
• Jager Sniper- sniper deployed inside, with 'camo' netting over roof (even if the pillbox is not actually camoflagued and remains visible)
• Engineer- some kind of crane, or engineer's hut depicted
• etc

BATTLE BUNKER- Yep. One design consideration (not really important)- if the machinegun is on top, how do the infantry get in? Perhaps, the answer is that there are hatches along the roof, surrounding the gun, that the soldiers climb into. The Flak troopers can shoot from these hatches (probably the Ivans throw from them), while the conscripts fire from the windows below, along the sides. I've got a good possible idea going... Also, will this structure (or its machinegun) be one-directional too?

VolteMetalic 11:46, December 29, 2011 (UTC): Its 2×2!!! 4×4 is insane! :D

Very simple. The pillbox will be facing into one direction in this fashion image. The weapon will be in the place, but cant turn fuhrer because of the structure. And, because it cant attack air, I wont be much bothered with the Patriot, and it will look complteley different than the turret.

Hazza-the-Fox 14:12, December 30, 2011 (UTC) Yikes! Yes, 2x2- I just made a typo :P

Those pillboxes look pretty awesome- I think I'll go for those designs completely. However, keep in mind in that form, all occupants and their weapons will look the same (though this could prove useful).

Also, I was thinking about it, and I reckon that an alternative to having delivered bunkers is to simply have some kind of special ability that casts a temporary build radius around a certain unit (engineer's deploy structure, perhaps).- or of course, capturable structures.

VolteMetalic 21:34, December 30, 2011 (UTC): Or... a Support/General Powers to deploy it for more money than it normally does? :)

Hazza-the-Fox 02:52, December 31, 2011 (UTC) That would be absolutely perfect! Ok, I think these guys are done- just a few more things to confirm.

So the Pillboxes do in fact simply look (largely) identical from the outside, with at best only a few minute details to give away its function?

So, I think we can resume talking about both of these structures in more detail (we may want to delete the original discussion content as we've kinda done a better job of sorting it out here, and we'd need to go over the confirmed details better).

VolteMetalic 12:19, December 31, 2011 (UTC): I am not sure what you are asking.

Hazza-the-Fox 07:50, January 1, 2012 (UTC) Pillboxes appearance- that 'dome' shaped structure with the slit- should that be the standard appearance of the pillbox? And does it remain a dome if different infantry are inside? We have a few options;

1. It is the way it always looks regardless who is inside- meaning the enemy can't tell who's in there, beyond looking very closely at that gun poking out, and maybe a few other minute details. There are a few stronger exceptions (engineer cranes mounted on top of dome, perhaps- M-COM holo-panels possibly).
2. It is the standard appearance, but it completely changes with different guns on top- problem is, it starts to look more like a turret, against the other turret structures.
3. It is not the standard appearance, but the way it looks only when a Marine is inside (has the same problems as above with other gunners- but looks less confusion when a marine enters or not.

As for the next bit- as we've been talking about a completely different type of defense in the 'Pillbox' section, I reckon it may be easier to restart it's discussion section to go over its deeper details.

VolteMetalic 19:49, January 1, 2012 (UTC): I have a good idea how it could work, will move it to Allies section.

Hazza-the-Fox 23:25, January 1, 2012 (UTC)Cool

Gates

Hazza-the-Fox 14:26, December 24, 2011 (UTC) Ok, discussing the option of having gates. Firstly, I'd probably want to make them a little less accessible than previous game's counterparts so that players wanting to foil an engineer rush and other infiltrators would need to earn it. Nothing major, Tier 2 perhaps, maybe a mildly higher than average cost for a defense structure- or even just a fair power cost (that last option would probably do the trick more than any- and it makes sense, it is a heavy object to move).

Function wise, the controlling player locks/unlocks them- allowing units to pass or not.

Attributes- should these gates have any additional aspects (to compensate for their reduced accessibility)- mounted defenses, armor boost to nearby infantry, watchtowers, a garrison? Probably not something too complicated though.

Design- do the gates slide shut sideways (into the surrounding walls), or do they slip into the ground (warranting a less 'wide' structure)? Keep in mind for the first option that the gates can be segmented bits that slot inisde themselves so the wall-section I would incorporate wouldn't need to be *that* wide.

I thought I would design some walls soon- and knowing the gates' design would help!

VolteMetalic 10:31, December 25, 2011 (UTC): The power consumption makes sense. Imagine that the gate is opened, and you shut the power down with a spy. Enemy will be unable to close it, so you can attack and drive right into the base! :D

For the size... maybe 4×1 like in Paradox, so the gate is really large. And the opening... Allies would have the segmented side-ways gate, that the pieces separates and foldes inside itself and drives to the walls, and Soviets would have a classical opening, like normal gates, not opening into the ground :) For the additions... the guns arent a bad idea, but I dotn know if they would be added, maybe just the Soviet one would havea guard towers on the sides, with a machine guns maybe. And Allied one... maybe would be shielded?

Hazza-the-Fox 13:15, December 25, 2011 (UTC) So Allied gates slide into walls, Soviet gates actually swing open on hinges?

4x1 sounds good.

Have to think about these possible functions (ultimately nothing too fancy- they ARE only gates ;) ).

VolteMetalic 14:38, December 26, 2011 (UTC): Yes, exactly like this. As it will be 4×1, the panels on the sides will be the "towers", and the panels int he center the actual panels of gates. The Allies gates will slide into these "towers" (I dont know how to call it properly), Soviet gates opens up by the hinges, but question is by which direction, if it will be opening up into the base, or outside.

Hazza-the-Fox 02:48, December 31, 2011 (UTC) It would also raise some questions about clipping (do we let units walk through the actual gate panels that are swung open)?

VolteMetalic 12:19, December 31, 2011 (UTC): Yup.

Hazza-the-Fox 07:42, January 1, 2012 (UTC) Ok, in that case I reckon they should open 'outward' (away from the base), and be positioned more towards the 'back' of the wall, rather than centered, so there is less protrusion out front.

I'll do some sketches soon

VolteMetalic 14:53, January 1, 2012 (UTC): Yes, that could work just well :)

Stolen Lab-tech units

Hazza-the-Fox 06:49, December 15, 2011 (UTC) For the units acquired by hijacking a lab and stealing tech. Ideally, I'd like to follow the Red Alert 2 logic in making units that are, largely, more for abstract espionage/sabotage tactics than general assaults- although they should obviously be pretty good at fighting too. Naturally of course, RA2's logic was to have one of your side's units outfitted with the other side's tech (eg a Soviet player stole Allied tech- and thus they could build new Crazy Ivan's with Chronoporter Packs- becoming Chrono-Ivans; an allied player would steal another Allied player, and their commandos got Chrono-Packs instead) The only thing to keep in mind is that these units should have some drawbacks, so they don't just supplant the original units (eg Ivans and Commandos, respectively).

Also don't forget that because the Crazy Ivan is now a national- it might get a bit odd having a "Chrono Ivan" available to general players too. also, the stolen tech should reward your unit and open up completely new strategic options (eg, a Chrono-Ivan didn't have to pass through any enemies, but merely had to pick a teleport spot that nobody would notice for a while). Usually it seems more 'passive' or 'indirect' support tech that they seem to be carrying.

So, with two sides boasting spies, with two combinations each, we'd have 4 units to consider (with some suggestions);

• Allied-steals Allied = Chrono Commando (Jager without the sniper rifle or swimming)
• Allied-Steals Soviet = (insert Allied unit wielding Psi, Nuclear, Tesla etc- note, RA2 had "Psi Commando")
• Soviet-steals Allied = (Soviet unit with Allied tech (Chrono-PsiCorps)??)
• Soviet steals Soviet = "Omega PsiCorps" (long-range psychic)

If we are considering another layer of Advanced Tech units for the advanced lab, however, I wouldn't be particularly against more assault-oriented units.

With that being the case, we'd probably have another 4 units to consider (though to balance with other units, they should be fairly expensive, even if their function isn't that powerful).

VolteMetalic 19:13, December 20, 2011 (UTC): Hmm... the Chrono Commando... Allies dont have just Chronotechnology, but other techs, like Sonic, Prism/optics and mirage/camo. From these you can use them not-offensively, like a stunning sonic wave attack, mirage... obvious :P

Hazza-the-Fox 23:37, December 20, 2011 (UTC) That is true; as far as outfitting a good Allied infantry unit (likely the Commando) with allied tech goes; it would best be excluding ones already outfitted to commandos (M-COM already has Mirage and Sonic)- which still leaves us with Chrono and Prism (and Napalm)- and possibly robots. So we could easilly have a mixture of the above (Chrono Commando has a Prism gun or flamethrower (the second option allowing a specialist Prism soldier as the advanced unit).

VolteMetalic 12:48, December 21, 2011 (UTC): Yes, for the A-A it would make a Prism Legionnaire for example (if with teleportation, I dont know), for A-S a commando of sorts with Tesla gun or electrical attacks (if with teleportation, I dont know), S-A maybe a cyborg unit of sorts. And S-S somehow boosted PsiCorps, but not purely with enhaced psychic, but somehow more offensive... maybe a kind of "Yuri's guard"? Some armored psychics with some weapons, which are undoubtely loyal to Yuri?

Hazza-the-Fox 23:04, December 21, 2011 (UTC) These are all good options too. More to think about...

VolteMetalic 11:09, December 22, 2011 (UTC): Definitely. There is so many possibilities :)

Hazza-the-Fox 01:57, December 23, 2011 (UTC) Damn straight there are;

Another possible one is a Chrono-Pyro-Commando-type unit (Commando who teleports, uses a flamethrower- making him technically a greater threat than Chrono Commando in the RIGHT circumstances, but less of one in general circumstances (open ground). Alternatievely, The Prism trooper could be a 'Prism Legionairre'? (or Chrono-Prism Commando-type unit)- geez, we'll have to think of some new names for these units). It also depends if these are the TWO allied special-tech units. for T3 and T4 labs respectively- although probably only one needs to be a commando, probably (I'd opt for the flamethrower guy).

I like the Yuri-Guard psychic theme- that would definitely work nicely! Especially with the armor! I reckon ultimately the function of RA2 Yuri Prime is probably the best thing to implent (floats, moves fast, insanely-long range).

A few other random ideas- commandos (either one side would be fine) that constantly send small RC bomb robots to the enemy base from a forward-position (probably playing too much Rage), Chrono Psychics, Soviet Chrono-demolitionist commandos, Soviet Flamethrower-wielding Chrono- Tesla Troopers, Chrono-Erase Tesla Troopers, Prism Tesla Troopers (they couldn't quite get the small-sized projector guns to fire a straight prism beam- so the split beams come straight out at short range and hit several targets). I dunno; it could be none of the above, for that matter.

I think definitely that Chronoportation should be the flavor for at least one of the stolen tech units that come out of the Allied labs, at the very least. As chronoporting units with actual attacks are definitely something that opens up more tactics (as RA2 proved).

I'll think of more later

VolteMetalic 11:22, December 23, 2011 (UTC): The Chrono should be there for sure. The Yuri Guard Psychcis, I dont think that levitating would look right, but he would be really fast, as enhanced by his powers and also cybenretics of the armor, and armed with something like polehammer or something. And, another option is some kind of fully cybernetic warrior for Soviets, with some Allied tech... a cyborg armed with a flamethrower? :P

Hazza-the-Fox 12:47, February 3, 2012 (UTC) Those could also work (Tesla Trooper with Flamethrower?) Bleh- so many options,

VolteMetalic 14:29, February 3, 2012 (UTC): Yeah :D Not exactly a Tesla Trooper, but some guy in heavy armour and armed with flamethrower.

Possible National minor-infantry

Hazza-the-Fox 22:47, December 19, 2011 (UTC)

A thought just came to mind.

Remember how we discussed that France should get some kind of paradrop- and we decided these needed to be Marines, only elite?

And similarly, Vietnam could get some kind of 'ambush' summon where the infantry appear immediately on the map?

I thought- what if, instead of standard elite infantry, both sides get a slightly augmented Marine/Conscript variant in the paradrops, with some enhanced stats where we want (eg speed, range, regenerates, can plant explosives)?

We could potentially have French Paratrooper corps (sabateurs)?, and Vietcong?

VolteMetalic 12:49, December 21, 2011 (UTC): Yeah, that could work. But the para plane can be shot, so Vietcong (upgraded Marines) would be created on spot, but it takes time to be controlled, making them vulnerable to attack till they are fully summoned (RA3 made the same with Tankbusters and their summoning ability)

Hazza-the-Fox 22:35, December 21, 2011 (UTC) Another possibility is that the Vietcong don't appear all at once, but one at a time, leaving those that are there vulnerable?

VolteMetalic 11:17, December 22, 2011 (UTC): That will make them too slow :D That power in RA3 worked like this. 5 Tankbusters appears in the circle, and all slowy rises from the ground. During this time they cant move or attack, but can be attacked. The Vietcong would work the same.

Hazza-the-Fox 22:42, December 22, 2011 (UTC) Could work.

So that aside, I reckon a quick rundown of appearance/ stats:

• French Paratrooper- Marine with a team-color beret, and a parachute harness. Better damage, and can probably plant C4.
• Vietnamese Vietcong(?)- Conscript with partly team-colored cone-hat. Moves and fires much faster, and probably has a wicked ability of his own (probably something to do with either traps, or maybe even tunneling?)

That aside are other things to consider- availability in the Barracks, or strictly via summon- and secondary abilities.

VolteMetalic 10:53, December 25, 2011 (UTC):

• French Paratrooper - Yes, a Marine witha beret, heavier equipment, a modified weapon. But Secondary would be different...
• Vietnamese Vietcong - Yes, cone hat, witha gas mask and a partial cloak (reaching to his stomach), AK-74 witha scope. Secondary would be that they burrow, with only the cone hat visible (model-wise). Game-wise he will be invisible (for naked-eye, like Scout), but he can little lift up when enemy is nearby, decloak and start firing, but with shorter range. When the enemy is down or out of range, Vietcong returns back down and again is invisible.

Via summon, but possibly there would have to be a place for them in Barracks. because when the nations are as "factions", all the structures dont have to have all units, so for example Allied factory will have just 7 vehicles in it, not 10, because a German will dont have Battle Fortress, Prism Tank and Chrono-Relay.

Hazza-the-Fox 13:46, December 25, 2011 (UTC)

Paratrooper- sounds good- question is, what would he do (something nice and sabotage-ey IMO)

Vietcong- that sounds pretty good! If we needed to handicap him, we could make it that he must take a moment to dig himself down/up, and during this time he is visible and vulnerable- but the upside is that he can possibly dig under structures (but cannot do anything to them from below).

VolteMetalic 15:04, December 26, 2011 (UTC):

Paratrooper - Yeah, but not strictly to be a spy of some sorts... hmm

Vietcong - How can he dig under structure? But the time-taking digging sounds fine :)

Hazza-the-Fox 22:33, December 27, 2011 (UTC)

Paratrooper- True

Vietkong- I thought he could become some kind of 'subterranian' type unit that can move through the ground (and simply passes through structures like a flying unit does). May not be feasible though.

VolteMetalic 13:08, December 28, 2011 (UTC): Not fully sure if it would be possible, the Vietcong qould just hide int he ground, not move in it.

Hazza-the-Fox 01:09, December 29, 2011 (UTC) In that case maybe not- as then it would overlap the M-COM too much in terms of how he attacks. I was thinking that he could move underground, but not attack- or would dig back up to the surface (taking a moment) and be able to move and attack as normal (which would also explain how they appear when summoned).

VolteMetalic 11:47, December 29, 2011 (UTC): Yeah, but dont forget that Vietcong was preparing earlier the tunnels, and now they will have to dig themselves in the ffield :) Just digging in and being immobile but invisible works just fine :)

Hazza-the-Fox 14:06, December 30, 2011 (UTC) But it still steals a lot of the M-COM's thunder- as it's essentially thier attack. I reckon, the best thing to do is use the 'tunnelling' as a form of teleport (or return-to-base escape plan)?

VolteMetalic 21:39, December 30, 2011 (UTC): I will ask you the same as at Fallout FOrt, how, and I dont see any connection between it and M-COM.

Hazza-the-Fox 02:47, December 31, 2011 (UTC) I think the simplest solution is that he transforms into 'digger mode'- he can move around the map like normal- only slower, and he cannot attack. He is invisible to all but dogs. He can either go under walls (or simply demolish them when he passes 'beneath'), but must maneuver around structures. He is also uncrushable. He must spend a few moments digging in/out of the holes to return to the surface (and is visible and vulnerable). Being barked at forces him to return to the surface (the logic is the dog actually dug him out itself). His appearance is of a man digging, or a hat above the ground- or just a raised mound of earth) with maybe a small team flag above it).

So in gameplay sense, he simply goes invisible and uncrushable, but cannot attack; and toggling this ability takes a few vulnerable moments. Also, he would not be able to see anything around him, so he navigates virtually blind, but can move freely into the unknown- or simply uses scouts to spot for him from the surface).

The problem with a concealed sniper mode is that he would be a longer-ranged and fully invisible M-COM. (both units assume a stealth-like posistion when stationary, and take potshots that briefly reveal their position- only the Vietkong goes totally invisible, while the M-COM simply pretends to be a plant, and can still be manually targeted and shot at by players).

Aircraft Types

The Atlas/Incendiary Question

Hazza-the-Fox 13:17, December 13, 2011 (UTC)13:16, December 13, 2011 (UTC)13:15, December 13, 2011 (UTC) Ok, here we are figuring out exactly what to do with our Allied Aircrafts- in particular, those large attack planes. As it stands, Soviets don't get anything of the sort at all as a standard unit, and have either fighters or free-standing (or free-floating) aircraft).

The Allies have the Atlas, Nightwing, Hurricane, and an unnamed incendiary aircraft. Of these, two are nationals, the Nightwing is a long-ranged Tier 4 craft. Which leaves an empty space for the remainder to fill tier 3.

So far, there is not a single non-national Tier 3 aircraft- and in particular, no non-national aircraft to fill the runway until Tier 4, if we are using runway craft (which would probably be better, gameplay-wise).

On a side note, there is at present only one type of fighter for both sides. And there is at present no 'drive by' heavy gunship that flies around spraying weapons.

I've thought a bit about this, and think I have some solutions.

We can both agree that *presuming* we are sticking with runway craft, that the Hurricane would be one of them, as it is too extreme to be used as a fighter; which leaves us with something between the Atlas and the incendiary craft, with the options being;

1. Atlas is a national, free-standing floating weapons platform that is either built and released- or summoned from the Hangar. Therefore, filling the runway vacuum in non-national is the incendiary craft, acting as a kind of mid-heavy incendiary bomber (or gunship with incendiary rounds), whose rounds have the same impact as the FlameBot's secondary attack).
2. The Atlas is a non-national STOL that acts sorta like a Spectre gunship, leaving the incendiary free to be either a national STOL bomber, or even a napalm fighter/drone with incendiary bombs, possibly even flamethrowers for 'crop dusting' runs against infantry.

I'd say one of those two and we'd be done. Either combination would be fine.

VolteMetalic 13:27, December 13, 2011 (UTC): I would go with the first option. Atlas being National of Brazil, and the napalm craft be a standard aircraft. But, I would move it to T2, becuase there is no other aircraft which stays on runway and is buildable from the moment you construct the Airbase. Because, Hurricane is T3, Atlas is national T3 and is summoned "from the skies", and Nightwing is T4. Airbase is build at T2, the result is obvious, the napalm craft would be T2. And, as the Airbase if for only one plane (or two?), it would be something larger than a Raptor, but not too large like Nightwing. Something between it, a light bomber.

Hazza-the-Fox 22:48, December 13, 2011 (UTC) Thinking about it, option 1 is the best. I think actually the incendiary craft (I'll codename DevilWing for now) should actually be Tier 3- as there is at present, two Tier 2 hangar craft (the Comanche and Blackhawk- not to mention the Raptors in the AirHQ), and absolutely no Tier 3 craft at all. And should probably be a Spectre gunship that also toggles to drop incendiary bombs.

VolteMetalic 13:22, December 14, 2011 (UTC): Than there will be no aircrafts being landed on the Airbase, even these two helis are build from there. And gunship cant carry bombs, there isnt space for the bombs, as there will be the shells and ammunition for gunships other weapons, and bombs require a lot of room.

Hazza-the-Fox 21:52, December 14, 2011 (UTC) yes there will- at Tier 2 there will be no STOLs (but instead will be busy making gunships and accelerating their self-rearmamen)t, but Tier 3 and 4 there will be STOLs.

And why wouldn't there be room for bombs for the STOLs? Wouldn't they operate like the fighters (only they reserve their bombs till they are overhead, and otherwise fire away their cannons)?

VolteMetalic 11:42, December 15, 2011 (UTC): No, you dont understand me. You cant place bombs and guns on one airplane and do the job of bomber and gunship. Because it will dotn have enough bombs to work as bomber and not enough ammuntion to work as gunship. Like one saying "When you are doing two things, you are not doing both fully." The aircraft can have guns OR bombs, not both.

Hazza-the-Fox 12:35, December 15, 2011 (UTC) Good question- in that case, I think it depends on which one the Allies need more, and also what exactly the Atlas will be doing.

VolteMetalic 11:01, December 16, 2011 (UTC): The question is answered already. The gunship is Nightwing, thought not using cannons but Prism. Napalm bomber is T3 bomber and Atlas will be armed with cannons.

Hazza-the-Fox 13:38, December 16, 2011 (UTC) Answers the question for the most part- it depends on how the Raptor, Comanche and Nightwing perform, and if they leave any gaps in the airstrike capabiltiies (although now that I think about it- the effects of having constant napalm drops vs constant barrage would essentially amount to the same thing- so Napalm is probably the best idea.

That aside, I think we can now make the remaining Allied Aircraft (Hurricane and Atlas (nats), Nightwing and the unnamed napalm bomber (Devil-Wing? Or some Greek Sun-God?)

VolteMetalic 09:39, December 17, 2011 (UTC): How do you mean, "make"? The napalm bomber could be named Dragon for example.

Hazza-the-Fox 10:51, December 17, 2011 (UTC) Sorry- I meant 'make' as in we start creating their 'unit pages' now we've sorted out roughly what the aircraft will be ;)

VolteMetalic 12:27, December 18, 2011 (UTC): Ahh, fine than :D

The Cuban Mystery Aircraft

Hazza-the-Fox 13:18, December 13, 2011 (UTC) 13:15, December 13, 2011 (UTC) So it seems we are leaning towards a nuclear/toxin based, possibly siege aircraft, be it airship, gunship/helicopter, or some kind of fighter. Pretty much a discussion of what Soviets would be missing that this thing would fill. They presently have.

• An airborne siege craft (Cricket)
• An ultra-long range nuclear unit (Desolator)
• A fast atomic assault (suicide) striker (Nuke Truck).

Therefore, it seems that what is missing would be a nuclear unit with some kind of repetitive but small-area attack (peppering mild toxic drums here and there, leaving smaller puddles of radiation rather than big disasters, so I reckon either.

• A large slow bomber craft that sprinkles radioactive cannisters below, or catapults them a medium-ish distance
• A mobile toxin mortar/Nuke artillery
• Some kind of chemical SCUD launcher, that launches destructible 'drones' that spread radiaition, but can be shot down.

VolteMetalic 13:27, December 13, 2011 (UTC): I would go with the large slow plane which fires toxic cruise missiles. The speed and weight makes it a target for Raptors which can quickly arrive and attack it, and the cruise missiles will do only moderate damage, and leaves the radiation cloud.

Thought the idae of SCUD/Topol launcher is very luring... maybe a mission-only unit?

Hazza-the-Fox 22:40, December 13, 2011 (UTC) Perhaps the 'missiles' are targetable suicide drones? To help differentiate it from other siege units?

VolteMetalic 13:22, December 14, 2011 (UTC): How do you mean it?

Hazza-the-Fox 21:49, December 14, 2011 (UTC) Well problem is we kinda already have an aerial siege unit (Siege Hopper), only its ordinance isn't even nuclear/toxic. Similarly, the Desolator already delivers nuclear waste at long-range. The result would be a unit that is essentially a better, simpler Siege Hopper that is easier to use- or a better desolator that can fly. Meaning that to make it more distinct and comparable, we'd need to either make it:

• Short-ranged, rather than long, and probably a non-stationary attacker (or it would be too similar to Kirov)
• Deliver its payloads by medium-speed, targetable, destructible 'drones', rather than un-interruptable missiles/shells.

So I'd probably narrow the options down to either;

1. A bomber plane that flies (or circles) overhead and drops small radioactive toxin cannisters (as the Soviets currently lack a medium strike bomber)
2. Some kind of long-range launcher (either helicopter, airship, or perhaps hover-craft) that launches destructible nuclear drones/missiles

Both of these would differentiate completely from anything we currently have, both in terms of function and role.

VolteMetalic 11:42, December 15, 2011 (UTC): You know you speak about 2 National units, which you hardly can have at once? :)

Hazza-the-Fox 12:33, December 15, 2011 (UTC) Yes, but if you were to offer option A- a long-ranged siege aircraft that has to land to fire a howitzer, or option B- a long-range siege aircraft that does NOT have to land to fire nukes- not much of a contest :P

Hence we need to consider an alternate function for the new aircraft so its not directly comparable (getting apples and oranges). And the above ones were the only ways I can think of that would make this possible and fill in still empty roles not greatly filled by another Soviet/national unit yet...

VolteMetalic 11:01, December 16, 2011 (UTC): When did I said it will be nukes?

Hazza-the-Fox 13:35, December 16, 2011 (UTC) Sorry- got that impression (probably confused it when we tied it into the cuban nuclear missile crisis). I've crossed out the nukes part :P

Still, the functions are very similar... though I think giving it destructible munitions might change that.

VolteMetalic 09:39, December 17, 2011 (UTC): What do you mean?

Hazza-the-Fox 10:51, December 17, 2011 (UTC) If the munitions in the second aircraft were destructible, it would add a new mechanic to it that acts as a deadly 'decoy' generator (like the old V3 launcher was). Of course, if the V5 missiles are also targetable, it may be better to either make the munitions some kind of 'shrapnel shower' generating weapons, or go with the other option (bomber that sprinkles cannisters).

VolteMetalic 12:27, December 18, 2011 (UTC): I am more and more confused.

Hazza-the-Fox 13:02, December 18, 2011 (UTC) No probs, its actually quite an interesting topic so I have fun explaining it.

As you know, your typical artillery vehicles simply shoot at longer ranges- their projectiles can't be intercepted, and as such they will always score a hit on its target location. While the Red Alert 2 V3 Missile can actually be shot out of the sky before it reaches its target. This has three implications;

1. That the warhead, although extremely deadly, can be safely neutralized by enemy AA
2. Therefore, if the enemy AA must shoot at these projectiles to stop them crashing into you, they are distracted from shooting at the rest of your airforce- in particular, heavy air units like the Kirov.
3. As such, this kind of artillery differentiates from the other as instead of delivering guaranteed hits, it will either be destroying the enemy, or draining the enemy's ability to defend itself- thus providing cover for your forces, as your launchers are constantly spawning free aircraft to make suicide attacks- putting a great strain on your enemy's AA capabilities.

At the moment, we have the Cricket Siege Hopper as the Soviet's "standard siege" AA unit, whose handicap is needing to land and deploy to use its siege attack- and its attack is purely standard artillery. And if possible, we might also be able to get the V5 Launcher to carry the second role of "V3 decoy launcher".

As such, for a new aircraft unit to gain a long-range attack would make it a twin of the Siege Hopper- and the only way to substantially differentiate it would be to either make it a fly-by bomber craft; or, give it V3 missiles (and if V3s aren't possible- it could use its own version of drones); This second option in turn puts it slightly close to the V5 launcher- though this might be easier to work around and make some new differences.

VolteMetalic 12:45, December 19, 2011 (UTC): Aha... but I meant it that the missiles can be shot down :D But I think that a normal fly-by and dropping radiation bombs (makes minor damage, but releases radaition)

Hazza-the-Fox 21:03, December 19, 2011 (UTC) Agreed! Now we just need to think of a name....

VolteMetalic 11:35, December 20, 2011 (UTC): Hmm... maybe... skunk? :D

Hazza-the-Fox 23:32, December 20, 2011 (UTC) Hehe- that doesn't actually sound too bad- I'll think about it..

Old Discussion

Hazza-the-Fox 23:54, November 9, 2011 (UTC) Simply put, this is the place to discuss the possible inclusion of addtional units- ideas that may work- or may not but are worth looking into.

a few that come to mind;

Soviet National aerial Pariah (basically a Red Alert version of Emperor Battle For Dune's "Eye in the Sky" unit, that floats overhead, explodes (showering shrapnel (comporable to flak shrapnel)- and then parachutes down a suicide bomber). The inclusion of this unit may warrant modifying some heavier flak units (possibly also the MYK Dropship) to include a 'shrapnel shower' siege attack (or in MYK's case, the "welcoming party" attack)..

Soviet National Psychic 'Bomber'- flies like a bomber jet or other aircraft- only it steals control of a unit instead. Perhaps if it had a few spare shots, players might be tempted to come back for another lucky shot (and risk getting shot down and losing control of the units it already had)

An extra naval unit per side; These being an Allied Submarine, and a Soviet demo-barge (either AI or Pariah piloted)- bringing both sides to having two submersibles, and an even number of surface boats- making both a more persistent threat in the seas.

Of course, creating a unit for one side would warrant (but not NEED) a unit for the other. But their functnion aught to be something that fills a positive and distinct niche its side warrants- but doesn't quite have (also remembering that each side having a few holes is a good thing).

And that does not necessarily include these units I mentioned either- hence the topic!

Thoughts?

VolteMetalic 11:24, November 10, 2011 (UTC): I think this might be useful jsut for ideas :D

Aerial Pariah... no, I am not really sure about it at all. They cna be transported by Super Hind, but something like this...

Psychic Bomber. Hmm... it mgiht be an interesting mission target, somethign what must be destroyed before Yuri manufasturers more and will alunch them into Allied countries :) Thoguth it is first time I hear about mind-controlling aircraft, so it is highest uniqueness!!!

Allied Submarine migth work, it migth be surface-attack-capable, like firing missiles :) And Soviet counterpart... the demo ship, thats not it. But Soviets has at their disposal Tesla coils, magnetic weapons and toxic arsenal. It mgith be somethign from this! :) Like with magnetic projectors it can pull the enemy ships closer, giving options for other ships to attack them. And maybe option to push all enemy units nearby like an shockwave.

My idea is for Allied "Supercarrier". It is huge aircraft carrier, largest ship in Allied arsenal and maybe HQ of Allied Navy in Pacific. Its size might be equal to the airfield, and ts secondary will be "Deploy", where it will become a structure, from where you can purchase vehicles (larger than drones). Armed with an array of AA guns and missiles, and probably able to carry Raptors and Comanches, plus one new aircraft (something like cross between F-35 Lightning and F-18 Hornet, with majority from Hornet). It will be able to use also drones like Drone Carrier, maybe also produce small "gunship drones".

Simply the pride of Allied Navy, which you will have in one mission at your disposal :)

Hazza-the-Fox 13:58, November 11, 2011 (UTC) Agreed- so flying pariah is out (alternatively, how about cruise missiles? Basically jets that crash into their targets?)

I agree too on the Psi plane- a good mission unit instead.

A SS missile sub I think that would be the best way- I think actually, a small missile salvo would make a good secondary ability for a hypothetical allied sub (so as not to steal MARS' thunder as a primary attack).

For soviet naval units, I'd probably steer clear of Tesla-based technology (the ocean is not exactly the safest or most practical place to discharge electrical/ionic weaponry). A toxic/corrosive/or-plain-explosive cannister launcher/ minelayer where the 'bombs' linger a bit, blocking access, could work...

Also, a possibility for either Allies or Soviets- robotic homing torpedos? Discharged from either a sub or ship- they are destructible non-controllable units that swim up to enemy ships and explode?

Super-carrier is a good call; serving as a large, floating naval base would be excellent. And agree also on some additional alternate jet fighters and hybrids too.

VolteMetalic 16:18, November 11, 2011 (UTC): Cruise missile is fine. In theory, it can be just another "drone" (Soviet?) which is made for one or two purposes. To smash into things, and possibly as scout.

Yeah, Allied sub might be like this, but than what will be its primary attack, if any? And than what will be its role?

Actually, it makes great sense for Tesla weaponry on sea :) Look on Soviet Stingray in RA3. But I agree that some kind of contamianting tanker might work well. Its primary role will be to attack with radiation beam, damging vehicles with corrosion effect, and secondary to launch by an mortar a barrel which will create a no-go territory (something like mix of oil and waste).

Hmm... no, it will be redundant to have the torpedo like this.

Exactly! It is the pinacle and pride of the Alied navy, (probably) the largest ship in the world, center of the Allied Pacific Fleet. With the option to carry Raptors, a new kind of anti-ship aircraft (VTOL Hornet), the drones of the normal Drone Carrier (bombing, scout and AA drones) and maybe option to build few others (helicopter drone?). In the mission your objectives will be to destroy Soviet fleet attacking... maybe Australia? Or Alaska? And your other objective will be that the supercarrier must survive (obviously, with all the admirality on board).

Also, for the naval resource gathering from the naval oil rigs. They will be carried normal ships, from the oil rig into specialized "naval refinery", probably called for both sides like "Harvesting Navayard", "Harvesting Port" or something like this.For Allies, I think they might have a normal tanker, and Soviets a specialized icebreaker :) Icebreaker will be just in appearance, no exact ability to be able to break throu-... or, it might be its secondary, to be able to speed up and ram a ship, damagiing it or destroying it while staying unaffected. For tanker, no ideas for now.

What do you think?

Hazza-the-Fox 22:00, November 11, 2011 (UTC) Easy- the Allied sub would otherwise be a weaker version of the Typhoon (the Typhoon could get instead get a robot super anti-shipping torpedo).

And I actually hated the Stingray for that reason :P I think some kind of sea-mine launcher is probably the best- though I still think a small demo ship is a good idea.

Agreed on the Carrier.

For the Oil Rigs- I was thinking of just having them return it to the Shipyard, but a second resource-collection structure would be fine (or, have a land-or-naval form of the supply depot structure)

VolteMetalic 23:49, November 11, 2011 (UTC): So US sub with a torpedoes, as secondary will have SS missiles, and Typhoon will be stronger and with "super torpedo". Like RA3 Akula Sub. That sounds fine. Or, US Sub (sorry I cally it US, its faster than Allied) might be armed with missile launcher, similar to the RA1 Missile Sub. Hmm...

Well, if this ship will be armed with some sort of raygun, with a mortar to launch the toxic waste, it mgiht also carry a nuclear reactor, and so when being destroyed violantly expldoes like a Super Reactor :D

For the supercarrier, this was my inspiration for that idea: http://media.moddb.com/images/mods/1/5/4016/alliedaircraftcarrier.png Plus Paraodx mod, in their lore there is mentioned a class of supercarrier, but I doubt it will appear anytime in the game. Now only the name of the ship is required, something mighty, democratic and simply something what makes you proud (and afraid) of just by hearing it. THan I can make an "article" for the unit in Allied Arsenal page.

I also thoguht about the option that it will be the same structure with two forms, I think it wont be that problematic, but I am more concerned for the ore collector it will make. Will the naval refinery spawn a supply ship, or supply truck? Another thing I will need to ask.

Hazza-the-Fox 08:58, November 12, 2011 (UTC) Yep! I think it's a nice balance- it presents itself as the same type of threat to Soviets as a Typhoon does (especially to warrant all that anti-sub tech when there are no dolphins around), and it adds a nice mid-ground with the ballistic-missile launching subs, without raining too much on the Dreadnaught's nor the MARS' parade.

Hmmm, now that could work very nicely for a radiation-themed ship! That would be a fun unit to work out!

I like that idea for the supercarrier- and I do agree it deserves an article, and it will also be fun thinking up a good name for it.

Ah, yes, good point- perhaps a separate naval resource structure would be better after all.

VolteMetalic 10:11, November 12, 2011 (UTC): Yeah, and that in present US has a nuclear submarines with abiltiy to launch missiles, so hence the idea from there :D Ofcourse, these subs wont have nukes :P

Exactly! A really nasty ship which brings horror upon the seas.

Definitely! :) Also, another inspiration for it is a flagship from Mass Effect, "Destiny Ascension". That gave me the idea that the supercarrier might be also a flagship of Allied Navy. Maybe the name might hint us for the supercarrier's name :)

Yeah, but than we need to talk about the structures again.

Hazza-the-Fox 05:14, November 13, 2011 (UTC) That too.

I think the nuclear ship would have some interesting implications using its toxin cannisters alone- if they were to launch one, and if it missed, would remain floating in the water for a few extra seconds acting as a sea-mine; with a secondary ability to simply roll them overboard like a minelayer)- or alternatively, self-destructed. I figured it may help separate it a lot from the other ships in terms of how its attack would threaten the enemy. The mines are easy to destroy by any naval unit (and subs could swim underneath them anyway), and after a while will deactivate and sink harmlessly; but in combat or stopping an incoming battlefleet, would be a terrible threat.

Cool... I could think of a few names; "Salvation", "Haven" (it is an airbase), although these are by no means as good as other names, but something to continue to talk about;

Agreed- I will re-evaluate the structure tree (maybe quickly make an illustration for that too)?

VolteMetalic 09:04, November 13, 2011 (UTC): I have had more in mind that its primary attack was a radiation gun, similar to Desolator's, and the launching of the toxic barrel as secondary, which after landing on water creates the oil-toxic stain. But as you say it, it will make it unique. The primary will be the mortar, which launches the barrels. If it hits, it will contaminate the enemy ship, giving it some drawbacks. When it misses, the barrel will remain on surface few seconds and than dissappears. During this, it will create a small toxic field which dissappears with the barrel.

But the Secondary... what about that it will be kind of the minefield. THe ship will need to float into the designated area, and there it deploys the barrels contaminating the area for much longer time, and any unit which enters it will be contaminated and damaged over time for few seconds. Note that this Soviet ship is resistant to the contamination, but when you will directly attack it with primary by the same ship, it will be contamianted and damaged, and the same as if Desolator will attack it.

Hmmm... what about "Independent Haven"? Just throwing the idea :D

Yeah, a simply and quick illustration might be great.

Hazza-the-Fox 21:25, November 13, 2011 (UTC) Sounds good.

That name could work.

And will do.

VolteMetalic 21:39, November 13, 2011 (UTC): Independent Haven dont sounds that good, but "haven" should stay in it... United Haven... no. "Freedom Haven"... no. Will search for possible names :)

Hazza-the-Fox 11:42, November 14, 2011 (UTC) I agree. Another alternative is "Celestial Haven"- throwing in a few religious-y words? That might sound a little too over-the-top though.. But I like Haven being in it.

"Paradise" might be some rather odd and twisted name to give- might sound a bit too silly..

VolteMetalic 12:01, November 14, 2011 (UTC): Or "Path to Haven"... no, that will sound too close to "heaven"..."Civilized Haven"? The "Celestial Haven" might be our candidate inc ase we dont fnd anything better :) Maybe "Azure Haven"

Hazza-the-Fox 13:26, November 14, 2011 (UTC) I'd agree, Celestial Haven (Celestial Sword/Crown?) may be the best candidate at the moment; (unfortunately for me, having read the GAP saga, its the only name I can think of that doesn't sound like any of those ships' names).

Also, names I considered like "Liberator" sound a bit too much like the "Liberty-class" ships.

VolteMetalic 19:26, November 14, 2011 (UTC): Yeah, I guess "Celestial Haven" might be the best option :)

And Liberty-class is already used by Drone Carrier ;P For the class of Celestial Haven, it might be... "Government-class"? :P

Hazza-the-Fox 22:58, November 14, 2011 (UTC) Of course, there could be other names like "Victorious" and "Sovereign"...

VolteMetalic 23:34, November 14, 2011 (UTC): Sovereign-class might work well. Victroious might sound too similar to Victory-class, a name of Paradox's lore supercarrier. So it will be Sovereign-class Aircraft Supercarrier "Celestial Haven". That sounds magnificent! :D

Hazza-the-Fox 08:12, November 15, 2011 (UTC) Agreed! That would be awesome!